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Barreled reciever transfer - NICS or Local?
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Logizyme
Site Supporter
Location: Lynnwood Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 Posts: 145
Real Name: Tyler
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I've got a "firearm" being shipped now where per ATF guidelines on the model/pattern the upper reciever is the serialized firearm. It is a completed reciever, and includes a barrel and bolt group, but does not include a lower, FCG, stock/brace, or magazine.
I spoke with the recieving FFL, a well regarded one in WA, who suggested that the item would not be a NICS - same day check, but rather would go through the local PD BGC and up to 10 day wait.
While the firearm is current not operational without a lower/FCG, the model is semiautomatic and could be configured as a pistol or a SAR.
I know AR serialized lowers go NICS, but I have not yet done a serialized upper, especially a barreled upper.
What do you guys know about this and WA/federal law?
Also - side rant - when is Taxlee going to get off his butt and establish the WSP SPOC so we can get our same day CPL pistol transfers back, it's been years now.
_________________ At $4 a gallon, gasoline sure is cheap cologne
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Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:27 am |
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MadPick
Site Admin
Location: Renton, WA Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 Posts: 52031
Real Name: Steve
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You mention uppers and lowers... to be clear, is the item that you're receiving the "receiver" from an ATF perspective?
If you tell us what it is, that might help.
_________________SteveBenefactor Life Member, National Rifle AssociationLife Member, Second Amendment FoundationPatriot & Life Member, Gun Owners of AmericaLife Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear ArmsLegal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy CoalitionMember, NAGR/NFGRPlease support the organizations that support all of us.Leave it cleaner than you found it.
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Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:29 am |
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dreadi
Site Supporter / FFL Dealer
Location: Tacoma, Washington Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2014 Posts: 8351
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MadPick wrote: You mention uppers and lowers... to be clear, is the item that you're receiving the "receiver" from an ATF perspective?
If you tell us what it is, that might help. The OP is confusing me. What platform of firearm is in question?
_________________BLACK HAMMER ARMSBuy A Suppressor http://www.silencershop.com/blackhammerarmsType 7 Class 2 SOT NFA Dealer 1911 Pistolsmithing Firearm Refinishing GLOCK Certified Armorer CMMG Authorized Dealer NEMO Arms Authorized Dealer http://www.blackhammerarms.comhttp://www.facebook.com/blackhammerarmshttps://www.instagram.com/blackhammerarms/
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Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:07 pm |
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Logizyme
Site Supporter
Location: Lynnwood Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 Posts: 145
Real Name: Tyler
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What I have coming is an aftermarket clone HK UMP complete upper by Omega. It has an attached barrel(~10 inches), and included bolt and recoil spring. The upper reciever is serialized and considered to be the "firearm" per the ATF. Thus it is being shipped to my FFL for transfer.
My question is should it be transferred as a Pistol/SAR and have the BGC completed by local LEO and have the up to 10 day wait, or should it be a NICS check like AR lowers(OTHER) and non-SAR rifles and result in same-day transfer(barring a delay by NICS?)
I ordered the lower reciever, including the fire control group and had it shipped straight to my house as it's not considered the firearm for the UMP and many other firearms.
I guess is there something about the laws that would make a reciever be processed as a pistol/SAR because a barrel and/or bolt was included?
_________________ At $4 a gallon, gasoline sure is cheap cologne
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Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:59 pm |
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Logizyme
Site Supporter
Location: Lynnwood Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 Posts: 145
Real Name: Tyler
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Sorry I guess I forgot to put that the firearm was an upper, my bad.
_________________ At $4 a gallon, gasoline sure is cheap cologne
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Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:01 pm |
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surevaliance
Site Supporter
Location: AZ Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 Posts: 6793
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Since it's not a "firearm" I don't see a single reason why it couldn't be just shipped to your door.
_________________ FPC member GOA member Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
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Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:54 pm |
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Logizyme
Site Supporter
Location: Lynnwood Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 Posts: 145
Real Name: Tyler
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The ATF rather arbitrarily decides and publishes guidelines as to what component of a given pattern/platform of firearm is the actual "firearm" that is required to have a serial number and be processed as a firearm.
We are all rather used to the AR pattern, where the ATF says the lower, which houses the FCG is the part that needs a serial number, but in most other platforms, including the similarly constructed UMP, the ATF has decided that it is the upper that needs a serial number.
In this case the HK lower is not regulated - similarly to an AR upper AND the HK upper has a serial number and is treated like an AR lower.
I assume a fully stripped HK upper, with serial number would be treated the same as an AR lower. HOWEVER, in my specific case, the upper has an attached barrel and included bolt, but none of the remaining parts required to allow the gun to function - as the FCG, unregulated lower and stock/brace I bought seperately and had shipped to my house already.
_________________ At $4 a gallon, gasoline sure is cheap cologne
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Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:06 pm |
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Pvanderzee
Site Supporter
Location: Bow Joined: Tue Apr 2, 2013 Posts: 2688
Real Name: Phill
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Logizyme wrote: The ATF rather arbitrarily decides and publishes guidelines as to what component of a given pattern/platform of firearm is the actual "firearm" that is required to have a serial number and be processed as a firearm.
We are all rather used to the AR pattern, where the ATF says the lower, which houses the FCG is the part that needs a serial number, but in most other platforms, including the similarly constructed UMP, the ATF has decided that it is the upper that needs a serial number.
In this case the HK lower is not regulated - similarly to an AR upper AND the HK upper has a serial number and is treated like an AR lower.
I assume a fully stripped HK upper, with serial number would be treated the same as an AR lower. HOWEVER, in my specific case, the upper has an attached barrel and included bolt, but none of the remaining parts required to allow the gun to function - as the FCG, unregulated lower and stock/brace I bought seperately and had shipped to my house already. If the part is coming from out of state, and it is the part of the gun that is considered the receiver, then yes, that part is the "firearm" per Federal law, and it must be transferred to you through an FFL when it comes into the state. In this case, the "upper" on the H&K UMP/USC is what is considered the "firearm." The fact that there is a barrel and some internal parts does not change it's legal classification. It would also need a grip and a brace/stock to fall into a more specific category.
_________________Sinus211 wrote: Z66 and I still fuck on the regular. zombie66 wrote: Mikey is a Bossy Bottom.....
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Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:33 pm |
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Logizyme
Site Supporter
Location: Lynnwood Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 Posts: 145
Real Name: Tyler
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Right, I completely understand that it's "the firearm" and needs to have a 4473 done.
My question is under Washington's current law is:
Does it get a NICS BGC check or does it get the local LEO BGC?
I assume it does not meet the federal definitions of a long gun or a pistol for purposes of the 4473, and I assume it should go as OTHER on that federal form.
I was under the impression it would be handled like an AR lower only and get a NICS check, not requiring the WA pistol/SAR form or LEO BGC. However my FFL is saying that because it is barreled, it will go as a SAR, even though I plan to brace it as a pistol.
---
Unless I somehow missed an update, anything that's not Pistol/SAR by WA definitions should be NICS check right?
_________________ At $4 a gallon, gasoline sure is cheap cologne
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Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:50 pm |
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dreadi
Site Supporter / FFL Dealer
Location: Tacoma, Washington Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2014 Posts: 8351
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Logizyme wrote: Right, I completely understand that it's "the firearm" and needs to have a 4473 done.
My question is under Washington's current law is:
Does it get a NICS BGC check or does it get the local LEO BGC?
I assume it does not meet the federal definitions of a long gun or a pistol for purposes of the 4473, and I assume it should go as OTHER on that federal form.
I was under the impression it would be handled like an AR lower only and get a NICS check, not requiring the WA pistol/SAR form or LEO BGC. However my FFL is saying that because it is barreled, it will go as a SAR, even though I plan to brace it as a pistol.
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Unless I somehow missed an update, anything that's not Pistol/SAR by WA definitions should be NICS check right? https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.010Quote: (23) "Pistol" means any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Quote: (24) "Rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. Quote: (27) "Semiautomatic assault rifle" means any rifle which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge to extract the fired cartridge case and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge.
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Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:57 pm |
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Pvanderzee
Site Supporter
Location: Bow Joined: Tue Apr 2, 2013 Posts: 2688
Real Name: Phill
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Logizyme wrote: Right, I completely understand that it's "the firearm" and needs to have a 4473 done.
My question is under Washington's current law is:
Does it get a NICS BGC check or does it get the local LEO BGC?
I assume it does not meet the federal definitions of a long gun or a pistol for purposes of the 4473, and I assume it should go as OTHER on that federal form.
I was under the impression it would be handled like an AR lower only and get a NICS check, not requiring the WA pistol/SAR form or LEO BGC. However my FFL is saying that because it is barreled, it will go as a SAR, even though I plan to brace it as a pistol.
---
Unless I somehow missed an update, anything that's not Pistol/SAR by WA definitions should be NICS check right? Your FFL is incorrect. No stock, not a rifle, per R.C.W. 9.41.010. Needs to be shoulder-fired to be a rifle, and it needs to be a rifle in order to be an SAR. You are correct, it gets a simple NICS check. It transfers as an "other" on the 4473. WA has no "other" definition, so it is, at best, a "firearm" as it has a barrel and it could be argued that it's capable of firing a round. Otherwise, it's nothing as far as the state is concerned. It's double stupid to assume it's an SAR because those things get built into pistols all the time.
_________________Sinus211 wrote: Z66 and I still fuck on the regular. zombie66 wrote: Mikey is a Bossy Bottom.....
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Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:57 pm |
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Logizyme
Site Supporter
Location: Lynnwood Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 Posts: 145
Real Name: Tyler
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Well, I guess it does meet the WA definition of a pistol, as it is a firearm and it has a barrel less than 16 inches.
But yeah I don't see how it would meet SAR requirements.
_________________ At $4 a gallon, gasoline sure is cheap cologne
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Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:00 pm |
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dreadi
Site Supporter / FFL Dealer
Location: Tacoma, Washington Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2014 Posts: 8351
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https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-gun-control-act-definition-pistolQuote: The term “Pistol” means a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having:
a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s);
and a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).
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Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:01 pm |
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Pvanderzee
Site Supporter
Location: Bow Joined: Tue Apr 2, 2013 Posts: 2688
Real Name: Phill
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Logizyme wrote: Well, I guess it does meet the WA definition of a pistol, as it is a firearm and it has a barrel less than 16 inches.
But yeah I don't see how it would meet SAR requirements. It might be a pistol. Maybe. It might be a "firearm" per RCW 9.41.010, as it could be argued that, because there's a barrel and the internals in the upper, you could fire a round with it. But even that is a stretch. In it's current condition, it does not solidly fit into the definition of a "firearm" at all in WA. If it's a firearm at all, it would have to be a pistol. But again. Maybe.
_________________Sinus211 wrote: Z66 and I still fuck on the regular. zombie66 wrote: Mikey is a Bossy Bottom.....
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Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:04 pm |
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dreadi
Site Supporter / FFL Dealer
Location: Tacoma, Washington Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2014 Posts: 8351
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I just talked to the ATF and was told according to 27 CFR 478.11 it is still just a receiver. Quote: Per 27 CFR 478.11, a pistol is defined as “a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having: - a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); - and a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).”
There is no grip, so it cannot be defined as a pistol. BLACK HAMMER ARMS Type 07 Class 2 NFA Dealer http://www.blackhammerarms.comhttp://www.facebook.com/blackhammerarmshttps://www.instagram.com/blackhammerarmsGLOCK Certified Armourer
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Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:56 pm |
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