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 Thinking about starting women's basic pistol class-thoughts? 
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MadPick wrote:
Rutilate, obviously the "by ladies" part is where you wouldn't quite fit the mold, even if you have ladies helping you out. I'm not saying that you can't make it work -- I hope you can -- but I would have your lady helpers at the forefront as much as possible, and have them teach the women-specific parts of the course that might be included (e.g., holster choices).


Yeah, that's the only real drawback of this endeavor right now. I have a number of testimonials from women I've taught, many of whom had battle scars from dealing with male instructors. I believe that'll help some, but just how much?

And of course you're right in that I should bring the lady helpers to the forefront. My wife and daughter run a therapy clinic in the area. My wife is hugely personable with the older ladies (35+) and my daughter is instant fast friends with everyone younger.

quantsuff wrote:
Good ear-pro is a must. Electronic is best, as it filters the gunfire, but allows them to hear the coaching without screaming. Many don't like the "feeling" of being shouted at. Yet, you gotta get thru the firing sounds and through the ear pro...so....

That's a really good point. I'll put it on the list of stuff to buy/have donated.

And your suggestion to not forget the retired ladies is also a very good one that I hadn't yet thought of.

Thanks for the suggestions, all!

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Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:55 pm
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We have a friend that teaches all female classes down here and also runs an all female shooting league/team with great success. I think the market is larger than you may think, getting the word out is another issue. We have many 1st time or newer female shooters at both the Upper Nisqually and Paul Bunyan Speed Steel matches every month and they are almost all, looking for some type of training/direction, we always try to steer them toward classes and refer them to the classes that are specifically focused on female shooters first. I think with the correct marketing and instruction, you can be quite successful in the endeavor.

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Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:47 pm
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I belong to an activity group for people with TBIs. If we can get persons with TBIs shooting at The Range you should be able to get womans classes in your area. The Range in Yakima does have Women Only Classes. I had several students Saturday that just started shooting that night and they worked up to shooting my 624 with my standard loads. I pulled six of my own guns out of my locker just for the class.


Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:58 pm
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hartcreek wrote:
I belong to an activity group for people with TBIs. If we can get persons with TBIs shooting at The Range you should be able to get womans classes in your area. The Range in Yakima does have Women Only Classes. I had several students Saturday that just started shooting that night and they worked up to shooting my 624 with my standard loads. I pulled six of my own guns out of my locker just for the class.

The Range also offers 2/month ladies-only action shooting leagues.


Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:23 pm
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If my prior posting came across as negative or discouraging, let me amend it.

Teaching others and getting them familiar and comfortable with guns is PRECISELY what gun owners must do TODAY in order to preserve the 2A tomorrow.

I have done this many times. Not long ago, I turned a anti-gun lefty into a concealed carry permit holder and compact gun owner. She was a friend, and two of her former BFs tried assaulting her over a 1 year period. So she came to me and we went to the range.

If every gun owner can help teach a few others and get them voting on pro-gun rights, it makes a massive difference.

Maybe you can recoup some costs or turn a small profit. Dunno.

But as I think more about it, I personally might even be willing to volunteer my time and even a few guns to assist.

I can use my legal skills and draw up a liability waiver. I've been considering getting an NRA instructor certification. This has given me something to reflect upon.

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Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:39 pm
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Too bad there isn't a big LIKE button or ThumbsUP to go add to this post.
Leadcounsel, I didn't take your post as being overly discouraging. And I'd love to talk further about the waiver offer. More via PM.

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Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:42 pm
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One additional consideration.

I would encourage anyone shooting around NEW people and particularly total strangers is to wear a concealable ballistic vest as a precaution against a ND or a intentional attack.

Also, if anyone has a lead on older "expired" ballistic vests, perhaps donated from a police or LEO agency, it would be great to secure about 10 of those. Have each participant wear a vest out of extreme precaution.

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Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:43 pm
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leadcounsel wrote:
Also, if anyone has a lead on older "expired" ballistic vests, perhaps donated from a police or LEO agency, it would be great to secure about 10 of those. Have each participant wear a vest out of extreme precaution.


I cant believe a lawyer just suggested putting students in a shooting class in expired body armor.

Do not do this. For one thing, if anything it will just serve to freak out the students who are presumably somewhat new to shooting sports and guns about something they really dont need to be freaked out about in the first place if they all follow the safety rules. If someone isn't following the rules they shouldn't be at the range.

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MadPick wrote:
Without penetration data, the pics aren't of much use.

Spoiler: show
"Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." – T.S. Eliot

"The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - St. George Tucker

A careful definition of words would destroy half the agenda of the political left and scrutinizing evidence would destroy the other half. - Thomas Sowell

"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow...

For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." - Jeff Snyder

Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys. It realizes the ancient dream of the Jovian thunderbolt, and as such it is the embodiment of personal power. For this reason it exercises a curious influence over the minds of most men, and in its best examples it constitutes an object of affection unmatched by any other inanimate object.

Jeff Cooper
1997 The Art of the Rifle Page 1.

Spoiler: show
SUGGEST CASE BE SUBMITTED ON APPELLANT'S BRIEF. UNABLE TO OBTAIN ANY MONEY FROM CLIENTS TO BE PRESENT & ARGUE BRIEF.

The defense attorney's telegram to the clerk of the Supreme Court, March 29, 1939, in re United States. v. Miller.

You don't need to go to Law School to understand the constitutional implications of that.

“You can’t cut the throat of every cocksucker whose character it would improve.”
Spoiler: show
cityslicker wrote:
I don't want to be told that I can't remove the tree by some tree-hugging pole smoker from the eat-a-dick foundation/Olympia/King County.


Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:44 pm
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jdhbulseye wrote:
leadcounsel wrote:
Also, if anyone has a lead on older "expired" ballistic vests, perhaps donated from a police or LEO agency, it would be great to secure about 10 of those. Have each participant wear a vest out of extreme precaution.


I cant believe a lawyer just suggested putting students in a shooting class in expired body armor.

Do not do this. For one thing, if anything it will just serve to freak out the students who are presumably somewhat new to shooting sports and guns about something they really dont need to be freaked out about in the first place if they all follow the safety rules. If someone isn't following the rules they shouldn't be at the range.


Your view is an interesting one.

Expired ballistic vests still generally retain ballistic protection. I've watched many expiriments and as long as the vests aren't soiled or damaged, they still work well enough for the intended use - to protect someone from a small caliber ND or attempt to hurt another student.

As for liability, that's what a waiver would cover. I doubt anyone training with firearms would be "more freaked out" by asking them to wear a protective piece of equipment like a soft vest if it's explained that being around new shooters that in spite of all training and precautions accidents might occur and this is a step toward safety.

Would you rather have a expired vest, provided for free use, offering some (perhaps degraded) safety, or no vest?

Lots of companies actually SELL expired vests, and police often stuff them in car doors to add ballistic protection. They are known to still work as intended.

20 year old expired vest generally worked against 9mm: https://youtu.be/bwuzBkAPcd4?t=402
7 year expired vest stopped 9mm and .45acp: https://youtu.be/3rtaBmroJFU?t=128
Expired vest stops 9mm and .40cal. https://youtu.be/qa_F3wzna4g?t=39
5 year old expired body armor works against pistol calibers, including .44 mag: https://youtu.be/tnRigdd4P48?t=138
20 year old vest stops all 3 large pistol calibers: https://youtu.be/jDqB2bFqjVU?t=76
20 year old vest stops all 3 pistol calibers: https://youtu.be/W-PGbSWxN7Y?t=175

Old vests are indeed a viable option to offer some ballistic torso protection.

Edited to add: If someone isn't "following the rules" it may be too late to get them off the range.

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I defend the 2A. US Army Combat Veteran and Paratrooper: OIF Veteran. BSM and MSM recipient. NRA Lifetime. Entertainment purposes only. I'm a lawyer, but have not offered you legal advice.


Last edited by leadcounsel on Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:34 pm
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I get the abundance of caution, but I'm not sure the body armor is necessary. If it were a public range with tons of people, maybe. I'm considering 10-16, with instructor coverage of 1 to 2-3; With that many people on the range, side by side with the participants, and with each instructor armed, there will be plenty of coverage against those with malicious intent. When I'm instructing people, I'm paying enough attention to catch aim following body turns, finger inside the guard, pistol laid down on the mat with chamber open, etc; similarly, we'll be able to catch most accidents. If it were one person with 100 newbies it would be a very different story. And as jdhbulseye mentioned, the FUD factor introduced isn't commensurate with the risk. And at the end of the day, you simply cannot guarantee that nothing bad ever happens. That's what all this current outrage is all about--the illusion of safety has been shattered and they want people to do SOMETHING to make them feel safe again.

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Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:38 pm
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Rutilate wrote:
I get the abundance of caution, but I'm not sure the body armor is necessary. If it were a public range with tons of people, maybe. I'm considering 10-16, with instructor coverage of 1 to 2-3; With that many people on the range, side by side with the participants, and with each instructor armed, there will be plenty of coverage against those with malicious intent. When I'm instructing people, I'm paying enough attention to catch aim following body turns, finger inside the guard, pistol laid down on the mat with chamber open, etc; similarly, we'll be able to catch most accidents. If it were one person with 100 newbies it would be a very different story. And as jdhbulseye mentioned, the FUD factor introduced isn't commensurate with the risk. And at the end of the day, you simply cannot guarantee that nothing bad ever happens. That's what all this current outrage is all about--the illusion of safety has been shattered and they want people to do SOMETHING to make them feel safe again.


Ya'll wear eye pro and ear pro right? I'd suggest around a room of newbies to incorporate ballistic vests if possible. That's not unreasonable IMO.

I've been around plenty of newbies. And at ranges where there are bullet holes in EVERY direction (sideways, up, down, etc.). As much as you can tell folks with handguns to beware of where they point it, flagging a fellow student might take only a second and lethal tragedy. VERY hard to keep an eye on 10 novices and and stop a accident. And yelling at them and kicking them out of the course - is that the direction we'd take?

Surely corrective training is necessary. What if someone does get shot with an ND? Then what? I'd surely feel more confident if the students were all wearing ballistic vests.

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Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:50 pm
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leadcounsel wrote:
Expired ballistic vests still generally retain ballistic protection. I've watched many expiriments and as long as the vests aren't soiled or damaged, they still work well enough for the intended use - to protect someone from a small caliber ND or attempt to hurt another student.


Yes, I am aware

leadcounsel wrote:
I doubt anyone training with firearms would be "more freaked out" by asking them to wear a protective piece of equipment like a soft vest if it's explained that being around new shooters that in spite of all training and precautions accidents might occur and this is a step toward safety.


Have you met many women that dont know much about guns and have never been shooting? I have, and I know a few that would have been a little more nervous if I had broke out vests for everyone to wear. I know one that I have zero doubt would have asked me to take her home and would likely have never got in to shooting again, she was very nervous. Its the perception, to someone quite unfamiliar it very well can make it seem that injury is much more likely that is actually the case in reality, no matter how much explaining is done. I know of exactly zero professional trainers that routinely hand out body armor to their civilian students on a square range.

leadcounsel wrote:
Would you rather have a expired vest, provided for free use, offering some (perhaps degraded) safety, or no vest?


This is irrelevant to the context that was being discussed. Of course I would rather...but we werent discussing me we were discussing people potentially very new to 2A

leadcounsel wrote:
Lots of companies actually SELL expired vests, and police often stuff them in car doors to add ballistic protection. They are known to still work as intended.


Yes, I am aware, and I too have the google.

leadcounsel wrote:
Old vests are indeed a viable option to offer some ballistic torso protection.


Again, aware.

leadcounsel wrote:
Edited to add: If someone isn't "following the rules" it may be too late to get them off the range.


Yes, I am aware. However, what are the actual odds? I'd be willing to bet I could get struck by lightning as easily. If the odds were anywhere near high enough to actually warrant body armor for new shooters in classes on a square range we would likely not have much interest in the shooting sports and a lot more media coverage than we currently get.

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MadPick wrote:
Without penetration data, the pics aren't of much use.

Spoiler: show
"Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." – T.S. Eliot

"The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - St. George Tucker

A careful definition of words would destroy half the agenda of the political left and scrutinizing evidence would destroy the other half. - Thomas Sowell

"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow...

For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." - Jeff Snyder

Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys. It realizes the ancient dream of the Jovian thunderbolt, and as such it is the embodiment of personal power. For this reason it exercises a curious influence over the minds of most men, and in its best examples it constitutes an object of affection unmatched by any other inanimate object.

Jeff Cooper
1997 The Art of the Rifle Page 1.

Spoiler: show
SUGGEST CASE BE SUBMITTED ON APPELLANT'S BRIEF. UNABLE TO OBTAIN ANY MONEY FROM CLIENTS TO BE PRESENT & ARGUE BRIEF.

The defense attorney's telegram to the clerk of the Supreme Court, March 29, 1939, in re United States. v. Miller.

You don't need to go to Law School to understand the constitutional implications of that.

“You can’t cut the throat of every cocksucker whose character it would improve.”
Spoiler: show
cityslicker wrote:
I don't want to be told that I can't remove the tree by some tree-hugging pole smoker from the eat-a-dick foundation/Olympia/King County.


Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:58 pm
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If you have the range set up correctly as The Range is and if you follow procedure as we did you will not have problems. You have to stay on them about trigger discipline especially as for some reason they like to stick trigger fingers on the trigger instead of out straight but it is just a matter of drilling safety in an not letting up you guard. The time before last one of their RSOs was instructing a student with my 624. I stopped that officer and that student on the spot for improper handling and holding and yes in this case it was a YPD officer that did not know how to teach proper grip for a revolver. That student would have had a badly mangled if not removed finger if I had not interceded.


Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:59 pm
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jdhbulseye wrote:
leadcounsel wrote:
Expired ballistic vests still generally retain ballistic protection. I've watched many expiriments and as long as the vests aren't soiled or damaged, they still work well enough for the intended use - to protect someone from a small caliber ND or attempt to hurt another student.


Yes, I am aware

leadcounsel wrote:
I doubt anyone training with firearms would be "more freaked out" by asking them to wear a protective piece of equipment like a soft vest if it's explained that being around new shooters that in spite of all training and precautions accidents might occur and this is a step toward safety.


Have you met many women that dont know much about guns and have never been shooting? I have, and I know a few that would have been a little more nervous if I had broke out vests for everyone to wear. I know one that I have zero doubt would have asked me to take her home and would likely have never got in to shooting again, she was very nervous. Its the perception, to someone quite unfamiliar it very well can make it seem that injury is much more likely that is actually the case in reality, no matter how much explaining is done. I know of exactly zero professional trainers that routinely hand out body armor to their civilian students on a square range.

leadcounsel wrote:
Would you rather have a expired vest, provided for free use, offering some (perhaps degraded) safety, or no vest?


This is irrelevant to the context that was being discussed. Of course I would rather...but we werent discussing me we were discussing people potentially very new to 2A

leadcounsel wrote:
Lots of companies actually SELL expired vests, and police often stuff them in car doors to add ballistic protection. They are known to still work as intended.


Yes, I am aware, and I too have the google.

leadcounsel wrote:
Old vests are indeed a viable option to offer some ballistic torso protection.


Again, aware.

leadcounsel wrote:
Edited to add: If someone isn't "following the rules" it may be too late to get them off the range.


Yes, I am aware. However, what are the actual odds? I'd be willing to bet I could get struck by lightning as easily. If the odds were anywhere near high enough to actually warrant body armor for new shooters in classes on a square range we would likely not have much interest in the shooting sports and a lot more media coverage than we currently get.


Most of your post is nonsense.

Yes, I have taught probably 20+ people, mostly women, with no experience around guns, how to shoot. I'm very adept at doing so. One a one-on-one situation, I'm not worried about her or my safety excessively because I am standing right there watching her every move. And she's not a total stranger. Every single training session has been a success, and fun.

Most adults can accept that safety equipment for a new sport or hobby or interest, particularly when there's lethal weapons at play. If you go skiing, you would probably wear a helmet. If you are learning to drive, you wear a seatbelt (even if it wasn't the law, you still would). If you go sky diving, you wear a helmet. If you go on a boat, you wear a life vest.

Same thing. Nobody is gonna get "freaked out" by wearing a 2 pound ballistic vest for safety in case of an accident.

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Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:45 pm
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leadcounsel wrote:
Most of your post is nonsense.


Not really, but okay. :thumbsup2:

leadcounsel wrote:
Nobody is gonna get "freaked out" by wearing a 2 pound ballistic vest for safety in case of an accident.


There are 7.4 billion people on this rock. Blanket statements inclusive of all of them are what we call....nonsense.

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MadPick wrote:
Without penetration data, the pics aren't of much use.

Spoiler: show
"Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." – T.S. Eliot

"The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - St. George Tucker

A careful definition of words would destroy half the agenda of the political left and scrutinizing evidence would destroy the other half. - Thomas Sowell

"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow...

For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." - Jeff Snyder

Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys. It realizes the ancient dream of the Jovian thunderbolt, and as such it is the embodiment of personal power. For this reason it exercises a curious influence over the minds of most men, and in its best examples it constitutes an object of affection unmatched by any other inanimate object.

Jeff Cooper
1997 The Art of the Rifle Page 1.

Spoiler: show
SUGGEST CASE BE SUBMITTED ON APPELLANT'S BRIEF. UNABLE TO OBTAIN ANY MONEY FROM CLIENTS TO BE PRESENT & ARGUE BRIEF.

The defense attorney's telegram to the clerk of the Supreme Court, March 29, 1939, in re United States. v. Miller.

You don't need to go to Law School to understand the constitutional implications of that.

“You can’t cut the throat of every cocksucker whose character it would improve.”
Spoiler: show
cityslicker wrote:
I don't want to be told that I can't remove the tree by some tree-hugging pole smoker from the eat-a-dick foundation/Olympia/King County.


Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:10 am
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