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 Legal question... 
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Can I bring some gun parts to a gunsmith to have them out together for a friend?
I'm going to Kent and he doesn't want to go.
Is this kind of a favor allowed?
Thank you.


Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:55 am
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Are any of the parts serialized?


Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:10 am
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Yes. One of them is a complete lower.
Edit: I feel like you responding with that question answers my question.
Thank you.


Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:17 am
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Huh?

Easier to provide guidance if there's a coherent question.

What gun parts specifically. What does "have them out together for a friend" mean in plain English?

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Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:23 am
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I'm going deep down south for an errand.
A buddy has an upper that he's struggling to attach to the lower.
We were curious if I could drop them off for him since he has to work when I'm going.


Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:40 am
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Davidsonmd wrote:
I'm going deep down south for an errand.
A buddy has an upper that he's struggling to attach to the lower.
We were curious if I could drop them off for him since he has to work when I'm going.


Technically I think you'd be sideways with the law as that might be viewed as a transfer if you're taking possession of a serialized lower. I haven't looked at it in a long time, but I think most transfers require an FFL and paperwork...

Edited to add the language of I594:
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.113

"Firearm sales or transfers—Background checks—Requirements—Exceptions.
(1) All firearm sales or transfers, in whole or part in this state including without limitation a sale or transfer where either the purchaser or seller or transferee or transferor is in Washington, shall be subject to background checks unless specifically exempted by state or federal law. The background check requirement applies to all sales or transfers including, but not limited to, sales and transfers through a licensed dealer, at gun shows, online, and between unlicensed persons.
(2) No person shall sell or transfer a firearm unless:
(a) The person is a licensed dealer;
(b) The purchaser or transferee is a licensed dealer; or
(c) The requirements of subsection (3) of this section are met.
(3) Where neither party to a prospective firearms transaction is a licensed dealer, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale or transfer through a licensed dealer as follows:
(a) The seller or transferor shall deliver the firearm to a licensed dealer to process the sale or transfer as if it is selling or transferring the firearm from its inventory to the purchaser or transferee, except that the unlicensed seller or transferor may remove the firearm from the business premises of the licensed dealer while the background check is being conducted. If the seller or transferor removes the firearm from the business premises of the licensed dealer while the background check is being conducted, the purchaser or transferee and the seller or transferor shall return to the business premises of the licensed dealer and the seller or transferor shall again deliver the firearm to the licensed dealer prior to completing the sale or transfer.
(b) Except as provided in (a) of this subsection, the licensed dealer shall comply with all requirements of federal and state law that would apply if the licensed dealer were selling or transferring the firearm from its inventory to the purchaser or transferee, including but not limited to conducting a background check on the prospective purchaser or transferee in accordance with federal and state law requirements, fulfilling all federal and state recordkeeping requirements, and complying with the specific requirements and restrictions on semiautomatic assault rifles in chapter 3, Laws of 2019.
(c) The purchaser or transferee must complete, sign, and submit all federal, state, and local forms necessary to process the required background check to the licensed dealer conducting the background check.
(d) If the results of the background check indicate that the purchaser or transferee is ineligible to possess a firearm, then the licensed dealer shall return the firearm to the seller or transferor.
(e) The licensed dealer may charge a fee that reflects the fair market value of the administrative costs and efforts incurred by the licensed dealer for facilitating the sale or transfer of the firearm.
(4) This section does not apply to:
(a) A transfer between immediate family members, which for this subsection shall be limited to spouses, domestic partners, parents, parents-in-law, children, siblings, siblings-in-law, grandparents, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, first cousins, aunts, and uncles, that is a bona fide gift or loan;
(b) The sale or transfer of an antique firearm;
(c) A temporary transfer of possession of a firearm if such transfer is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to the person to whom the firearm is transferred if:
(i) The temporary transfer only lasts as long as immediately necessary to prevent such imminent death or great bodily harm; and
(ii) The person to whom the firearm is transferred is not prohibited from possessing firearms under state or federal law;
(d) A temporary transfer of possession of a firearm if: (i) The transfer is intended to prevent suicide or self-inflicted great bodily harm; (ii) the transfer lasts only as long as reasonably necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm; and (iii) the firearm is not utilized by the transferee for any purpose for the duration of the temporary transfer;
(e) Any law enforcement or corrections agency and, to the extent the person is acting within the course and scope of his or her employment or official duties, any law enforcement or corrections officer, United States marshal, member of the armed forces of the United States or the national guard, or federal official;
(f) A federally licensed gunsmith who receives a firearm solely for the purposes of service or repair, or the return of the firearm to its owner by the federally licensed gunsmith;
(g) The temporary transfer of a firearm (i) between spouses or domestic partners; (ii) if the temporary transfer occurs, and the firearm is kept at all times, at an established shooting range authorized by the governing body of the jurisdiction in which such range is located; (iii) if the temporary transfer occurs and the transferee's possession of the firearm is exclusively at a lawful organized competition involving the use of a firearm, or while participating in or practicing for a performance by an organized group that uses firearms as a part of the performance; (iv) to a person who is under eighteen years of age for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes while under the direct supervision and control of a responsible adult who is not prohibited from possessing firearms; (v) under circumstances in which the transferee and the firearm remain in the presence of the transferor; or (vi) while hunting if the hunting is legal in all places where the person to whom the firearm is transferred possesses the firearm and the person to whom the firearm is transferred has completed all training and holds all licenses or permits required for such hunting, provided that any temporary transfer allowed by this subsection is permitted only if the person to whom the firearm is transferred is not prohibited from possessing firearms under state or federal law;
(h) A person who (i) acquired a firearm other than a pistol by operation of law upon the death of the former owner of the firearm or (ii) acquired a pistol by operation of law upon the death of the former owner of the pistol within the preceding sixty days. At the end of the sixty-day period, the person must either have lawfully transferred the pistol or must have contacted the department of licensing to notify the department that he or she has possession of the pistol and intends to retain possession of the pistol, in compliance with all federal and state laws; or
(i) A sale or transfer when the purchaser or transferee is a licensed collector and the firearm being sold or transferred is a curio or relic."

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Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:15 am
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Davidsonmd wrote:
Yes. One of them is a complete lower.
Edit: I feel like you responding with that question answers my question.
Thank you.


Well, it doesn't necessarily make it illegal. The problem is "intent". WA Definition of a Firearm that requires an FFL varies from the Federal's definition. Receivers, that cannot fire, are not firearms that require BGC's per 594, so you wouldn't be astray of the law. Now, if you had all the parts of the gun in the same box that could make it fully operational, then you "could" be found in violation of the law.

Have you talked with the gunsmith about your plan?


Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:11 am
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Massivedesign wrote:
Davidsonmd wrote:
Yes. One of them is a complete lower.
Edit: I feel like you responding with that question answers my question.
Thank you.


Well, it doesn't necessarily make it illegal. The problem is "intent". WA Definition of a Firearm that requires an FFL varies from the Federal's definition. Receivers, that cannot fire, are not firearms that require BGC's per 594, so you wouldn't be astray of the law. Now, if you had all the parts of the gun in the same box that could make it fully operational, then you "could" be found in violation of the law.

Have you talked with the gunsmith about your plan?


Really? So you can buy a stripped lower from an FFL with no back ground check? That's news to me...

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Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:44 am
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leadcounsel wrote:
Massivedesign wrote:
Davidsonmd wrote:
Yes. One of them is a complete lower.
Edit: I feel like you responding with that question answers my question.
Thank you.


Well, it doesn't necessarily make it illegal. The problem is "intent". WA Definition of a Firearm that requires an FFL varies from the Federal's definition. Receivers, that cannot fire, are not firearms that require BGC's per 594, so you wouldn't be astray of the law. Now, if you had all the parts of the gun in the same box that could make it fully operational, then you "could" be found in violation of the law.

Have you talked with the gunsmith about your plan?


Really? So you can buy a stripped lower from an FFL with no back ground check? That's news to me...


FFL's run a check on lowers per federal law.

State law is another matter. Prior to the passing of a recent bill, I'm forgetting the number, WA state had no category for "other" like the feds do, and if it was incapable of firing a round, it was not a "firearm" according to state definition.

Not a "firearm" means the requirements of I-594 do not apply. Receivers were a nothing as far as the state was concerned.

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Last edited by Pvanderzee on Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:46 am
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leadcounsel wrote:
Massivedesign wrote:
Davidsonmd wrote:
Yes. One of them is a complete lower.
Edit: I feel like you responding with that question answers my question.
Thank you.


Well, it doesn't necessarily make it illegal. The problem is "intent". WA Definition of a Firearm that requires an FFL varies from the Federal's definition. Receivers, that cannot fire, are not firearms that require BGC's per 594, so you wouldn't be astray of the law. Now, if you had all the parts of the gun in the same box that could make it fully operational, then you "could" be found in violation of the law.

Have you talked with the gunsmith about your plan?


Really? So you can buy a stripped lower from an FFL with no back ground check? That's news to me...


Come on, man. We've had this conversation a thousand times now.

A receiver is a firearm per federal law, so when you buy one from an FFL there's a background check. A receiver is not a firearm per WA state law, so WA law requiring background checks for private transfers of firearms does not apply.

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Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:48 am
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Guy used to sell lowers at the Monroe WAC show about 5-6 years ago.
$40 each.
Think a box of 24 lowers was under $1,000
No paperwork. Cash and carry.
Had serial numbers, not sure how he swung it.
Stacks of boxes. Maybe 3-4,000 receivers.

That's why I don't get the whole 80% or plastic lower thing.
Must be easier ways around that, and I own a machine shop.
Wouldn't fuck around with any 80% shit.
Not worth my time.

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Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:54 am
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MadPick wrote:
leadcounsel wrote:
Massivedesign wrote:
Davidsonmd wrote:
Yes. One of them is a complete lower.
Edit: I feel like you responding with that question answers my question.
Thank you.


Well, it doesn't necessarily make it illegal. The problem is "intent". WA Definition of a Firearm that requires an FFL varies from the Federal's definition. Receivers, that cannot fire, are not firearms that require BGC's per 594, so you wouldn't be astray of the law. Now, if you had all the parts of the gun in the same box that could make it fully operational, then you "could" be found in violation of the law.

Have you talked with the gunsmith about your plan?


Really? So you can buy a stripped lower from an FFL with no back ground check? That's news to me...


Come on, man. We've had this conversation a thousand times now.

A receiver is a firearm per federal law, so when you buy one from an FFL there's a background check. A receiver is not a firearm per WA state law, so WA law requiring background checks for private transfers of firearms does not apply.


OP is stating intent to mule a lower and an upper that belongs to someone else to a gunsmith in order for it to be assembled. Then presumably (albeit unclear due to OP being unable to provide a clear question) mule the assembled gun back to his friend. But maybe it's just dropping off several parts and the friend will then get it at another time?

In spite of all the vague, twisted language, etc. ... that's a pretty hard one to defend reading the letter of the law. At some point, that sure does appear to be a transfer of a firearm without a BGC. Muling completed but separate parts is awfully close, at probably at least constructive possession. Muling a completed gun back is clearly in violation IMO. And a legal defense would cost north of $5000....

We all know that's a firearm under state and federal laws. If you had to defend that action, you'd claim that a lower isn't a firearm when we all know it is per the federal definition, and that it IS in fact a device that can fire a projectile with the mere attachment of a few parts? Good luck with that defense.

And that ignores the pickle this puts the FFL in. If the FFL checks it in from person A, I'd assume he'd have to run a BGC for giving out to anyone other than the presumed owner, person A... so if buddy B comes in to collect it, the FFL would be wise to run a check... I know I'd be ticked if I was the FFL put in this pickle.

In short, it's my opinion that is dangerously close to if not crossing the I594 line. Whether you care to do that and how risk adverse you are is an individual decision.

https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.010

"(11) "Firearm" means a weapon or device from which a projectile or projectiles may be fired by an explosive such as gunpowder. "Firearm" does not include a flare gun or other pyrotechnic visual distress signaling device, or a powder-actuated tool or other device designed solely to be used for construction purposes."

Federal Definition isn't much different:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-g ... e%20device.

"The term “Firearm” means:
Any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, or The frame or receiver of any such weapon;... "

Well us gun enthusiasts might find that nuanced difference, but are you confident some young hotshot anti-gun DA wanting his first I594 conviction is going to find that same nuance? Also it gets into complexities of once having been assembled, blah blah blah...

I'm more risk averse than others I suppose.

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Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:41 pm
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LC, I’m not disagreeing that if you bring all the parts, that’s a sticky situation. I wouldn’t do it.

My point was about the lower only. Firearm per the feds, not a firearm per WA.

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Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:06 pm
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Thank you.
Not enough parts to complete the firearm.
I was going to inform the gunsmith that it wasn't mine and give contact info for owner to make decisions and to pick up.
Didn't end up happening. Too sticky.


Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:12 pm
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