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 The threat to 2A 
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kf7mjf wrote:
....

I think in the grand scheme of things Obama was fairly benign in what actually got done. We can thank Congress being too unwilling after Sandy Hook to pass an AWB, and that required true bipartisanship (which is to say, everyone remembered what happened in 1993...)

To me, in my lifetime the greatest anti gun presidents were Bush I and Clinton, and Clinton's greatest fuckery came with the consent of Congress.


Well you can keep dreaming if you want.
Let's also remember that in 1993 we had a deviant democrat for president (and his derranged wife who they had to finally say SHUT UP to beofre she destroyed everything). A house run by democrats (and had been for 30+ years). Forget what the exact breakdown of the Senate was.
Let's remember what happened in 1994. Clinton and the Democrats got trashed in the midterms. (And I mean destroyed!)

To say Obama has been benign is ignoring a few too many things. It is true (as others have pointed out) he did get any big sweepeing things done but he has stacked the deck in the courts with luiberal activist judges at all levels. He's appointed two AG's who refuse to uphold any law unless its something that the left wants, in which case they use the power of the government to try and remove rights. The ATF and others have tried numerous things to restrict, reduce, and harass gun owners. Luckily we and numerous enough and have a few organizations like th SAF, NRA, etc... that are watching and challenging these rules before they take hold.
It's under Obama's watch, and yes you CAN blame him, for changing the 5,000 year old defition of what marriage is, For distroying the moral of our armed forces, for allowing and pushing for passage of laws like 594, Registration, and the list goes on.

Remember Great Britain, Obama and Hillary and the assorted anti-gun groups are using the same old play book. We are about 10-15 years behind Britain now. Pay attention. There is now such thing as common sense gun reform from these clowns.

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Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:45 pm
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Col_Temp wrote:
It's under Obama's watch, and yes you CAN blame him, for changing the 5,000 year old defition of what marriage is, For distroying the moral of our armed forces, for allowing and pushing for passage of laws like 594, Registration, and the list goes on.


What does Obama have to do with 594!?!?!?!


Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:18 pm
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kf7mjf wrote:
I'm still not convinced 41F is bad, unless you have the coin to buy NFA items on a regular basis, then it becomes irritating. For Joe Average, it may make the process easier, especially when dealing with the maze of predatory gun trust peddlers who profit off ignorance.

For better or worse, 7n6 probably does meet the qualification of armor piercing as exists in current law, bound to happen sooner or later. M855 ban attempt was fucking stupid, as it had already been exempted but that got soundly stomped as it should.

None of which can even hold a candle to Papa Bush and his EO's banning various imports.

I think in the grand scheme of things Obama was fairly benign in what actually got done. We can thank Congress being too unwilling after Sandy Hook to pass an AWB, and that required true bipartisanship (which is to say, everyone remembered what happened in 1993...)

To me, in my lifetime the greatest anti gun presidents were Bush I and Clinton, and Clinton's greatest fuckery came with the consent of Congress.


What you're saying is, "Well, none of them were THAT bad."

Yeah. None of them are complete killers of 2A rights. But they're all WRONG, and movement in the wrong direction.

The issue with 7N6 is that to be banned it needed to be both armor-piercing and used in handguns. It's the handguns piece of the puzzle that's missing, and THAT is why the ban was wrong.

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Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:39 pm
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No, what I am saying is that if this is the best that can be trotted out to prove Obama was terrible for gun rights, it's pretty weak sauce. One is an administrative change, and I still maintain makes life easier for some people and harder than others; in fact somewhat flip flops it around. The trust guys shitting out tax stamps every week have more paperwork, Joe Average who hasn't set up a trust and just wants one or two NFA items is probably a wash or even easier. We've had that conversation though.

As for 7n6, there are AK 74 pistols in it, and more than existed when the Norinco 7.62x39 ban was put into place.

What we have are administrative actions that either were to be expected and function under the currently existing law (7n6) or change how an irritating procedure is done, with mixed net results.

So while Obama made some horrible (failed) attempts at anti gun legislation, his legacy includes signing a bill that allowed carry in National Parks, and a couple of administrative actions that quite frankly could have happened under any POTUS, and at least one appears to conform to existing laws already on the books. Meh. The 7n6 hurts, but it was already illegal by default the minute people started cranking out AK 74 style pistols. End result? From a theoretical standpoint Obama is terrible for gun rights. For a what actually happened under his watch, he's far from the effective monster people paint him to be.

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Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:56 pm
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AK-74 pistols? Show me those.

And no doubt you can find one or two that some random gun owner made . . . but show me a commercial model, and one that was made before the 7N6 ban. In the U.S.

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Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:46 pm
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Robinson Arms had a 5.45 going back to at least 2012 from what I can find.

Arsenal has one http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012 ... ak-pistol/

Any number of one off and small batch Krinks running around.

Remember it only took Oly Arms making 7.62x39 pistols to trigger the Norinco ban.

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Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:56 pm
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That Arsenal is a 5.56, not a 5.45. Got a link to the Robinson?

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Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:04 pm
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Oops I misread the Arsenal

Here is the Robinson http://robinsonarmament.com/product/xcr-l-pistol/

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Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:08 pm
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http://www.armslist.com/posts/3473155/m ... x39-pistol

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Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:14 pm
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ATF's determination, including referencing a commercially available 5.45x39mm pistol. I'm not supporting, or agreeing with this (this for the usual gang who can't tell the difference between the ability to read and repeat data and endorsing the position that data leads to) https://www.atf.gov/news/pr/test-examin ... ammunition

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Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:17 pm
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kf7mjf wrote:
No, what I am saying is that if this is the best that can be trotted out to prove Obama was terrible for gun rights, it's pretty weak sauce. One is an administrative change, and I still maintain makes life easier for some people and harder than others; in fact somewhat flip flops it around. The trust guys shitting out tax stamps every week have more paperwork, Joe Average who hasn't set up a trust and just wants one or two NFA items is probably a wash or even easier. We've had that conversation though.

As for 7n6, there are AK 74 pistols in it, and more than existed when the Norinco 7.62x39 ban was put into place.

What we have are administrative actions that either were to be expected and function under the currently existing law (7n6) or change how an irritating procedure is done, with mixed net results.

So while Obama made some horrible (failed) attempts at anti gun legislation, his legacy includes signing a bill that allowed carry in National Parks, and a couple of administrative actions that quite frankly could have happened under any POTUS, and at least one appears to conform to existing laws already on the books. Meh. The 7n6 hurts, but it was already illegal by default the minute people started cranking out AK 74 style pistols. End result? From a theoretical standpoint Obama is terrible for gun rights. For a what actually happened under his watch, he's far from the effective monster people paint him to be.


I believe it was already stated by Steve, but to me it is more the aspect of constant attacks on the 2nd amendment through media and speeches from the administration that does real damage. Remember that not all Americans are gun owners who frequent sites like this and many are easily swayed and gullible. Holder stated it well back in the 90's when he said they had to brainwash people against guns. The slow erosion of rights works effectively over time. States have enacted anti-gun legislation based mainly on the anti-gun rhetoric of the White House since the 2012 election. That push gave impetus and backing for the billionaire assault on states. To think that the President and his stance had no impact on these state initiatives and the ability of large amounts of cash to sway voters seems naive. They started with Fast and Furious to demonize guns with an illegal gun running op and they haven't let up.

I also believe Dave was pointing out that it is not only a Second issue with her but all rights. Perhaps I misread his post though. Hillary does not seem to care for the rights we should have or the Constitution. Believing she may be toothless to follow through with what she wants disregards all of the things a President can do when in power. The President has the stated power to administrate the massive bureacratic agencies of the federal government. They can do a lot of damage without Congressional or SCOTUS involvement.

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Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:03 am
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MadPick wrote:
kf7mjf wrote:
You forget, a constant level of fear has been part of gun owner culture since at least the late sixties and possibly earlier if we allow for the Cold War and the growth of the mythology of the stalwart rifleman standing between the general public and tyranny. At this point we've gone from invasion fears, to the regular claims of potential Nazi like confiscation and hints of implied mass murder , to attributing extra legal power to the office of POTUS. Having already invoked the worst crimes of modern history, the bar must be constantly elevated in order to maintain the control of fear.


If I wasn't LIVING the nightmare, seeing our rights under attack every day in the news and on the web, and seeing an anti-gun initiative in my November ballots, I would join you in the festive belittling of fellow gun owners and those who protect our rights.



(BS) Post and response of the year right there.

From attempting to stand up to the Democrat attack to right wing wacko in less the .01us. IF kf7mjf just openly admitted he prefers liberal politics OVER actual true non watered down gun rights, people might see him as honest and of course he will do his usual response here. I won't call him full of shit because that might violate the CofC, but I will just say kf7mjf is disingenuous at best, blind at worst.

What exactly has Hillary said that is pro-gun? NOTHING.

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Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:43 am
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kf7mjf wrote:
ATF's determination, including referencing a commercially available 5.45x39mm pistol. I'm not supporting, or agreeing with this (this for the usual gang who can't tell the difference between the ability to read and repeat data and endorsing the position that data leads to) https://www.atf.gov/news/pr/test-examin ... ammunition


I'm certain that the othernoistols you linked weren't available at the time.

Try finding me one of the pistols that the ATF referenced. THOSE are the pistols that were allegedly available, but in reality did not exist in the US.

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Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:39 am
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Pablo wrote:
MadPick wrote:
kf7mjf wrote:
You forget, a constant level of fear has been part of gun owner culture since at least the late sixties and possibly earlier if we allow for the Cold War and the growth of the mythology of the stalwart rifleman standing between the general public and tyranny. At this point we've gone from invasion fears, to the regular claims of potential Nazi like confiscation and hints of implied mass murder , to attributing extra legal power to the office of POTUS. Having already invoked the worst crimes of modern history, the bar must be constantly elevated in order to maintain the control of fear.


If I wasn't LIVING the nightmare, seeing our rights under attack every day in the news and on the web, and seeing an anti-gun initiative in my November ballots, I would join you in the festive belittling of fellow gun owners and those who protect our rights.



(BS) Post and response of the year right there.

From attempting to stand up to the Democrat attack to right wing wacko in less the .01us. IF kf7mjf just openly admitted he prefers liberal politics OVER actual true non watered down gun rights, people might see him as honest and of course he will do his usual response here. I won't call him full of shit because that might violate the CofC, but I will just say kf7mjf is disingenuous at best, blind at worst.

What exactly has Hillary said that is pro-gun? NOTHING.



Well to her defense, at the last debate she did say she lived in Arkansas for 18 years when asked about guns. :bonghit: How that applies to her being 2A friendly is baffling to me.

Everything else in your post is a big fat :plusone:

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Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:47 am
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I find it curious that people think that referring to previous war crimes is overstating the danger.

When I was a teenager, WW2 seemed like ancient history. Pol Pot and his murder spree seemed like ancient history, even though it occurred very recently.

What is it about mass murder that makes people say "You're a nutter for comparing here with there. That can't happen here."

WW2 took place less than 80 years ago... That is a tiny amount of time. It amazes me that the "It can't happen here" folks seem to think that we are that different from the rest of the people of history.
Yes, we have a good constitution. It was written by people who wanted to make sure that the government would not interfere with individual liberty.

2A is super clear to me - The fed .Gov is NEVER to pass laws restricting in any way the Right of any of the people to keep and bear arms. Many rulings since have expanded that to preclude any government at any level from violating the constitutional rules. It has been skirted (in the name of safety) to allow infringements that are called "regulations" ... (See, it says right here- "well regulated.")

When you have elected officials publicly announcing their own fear, and stating publicly, loudly and frequently that we MUST pass more laws against guns to make our streets safer, we're actually seeing those elected representatives lie to the uninformed.
The uninformed can be defined here as those who do not take the time or make the effort to think back to the purpose of the constitution and 2A, and who are willing to listen to people in elected positions because they think that the representatives are wiser somehow.
They're not. They're humans. They wake up with bad breath, get sick, make bad decisions, get cocky and arrogant, feel insecurity, etc.
2A is under REAL threat here and now. We've had advances and setbacks, and there is no more powerful setback than the slow ostracization of rural people, and gun owners.
Tip the SCOTUS to strongly anti-2A and we are well and truly screwed maybe for the rest of the "life" of the USA.


Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:03 am
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