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 If you carry... Shoot to "Neutralize" or what? 

What does "Neutralize" mean to you?
Shoot until they stop being a threat (be it dead or alive) 83%  83%  [ 38 ]
Shoot to Kill 9%  9%  [ 4 ]
Shoot to Wound 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Shoot to Incapacitate 4%  4%  [ 2 ]
Other 4%  4%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 46

 If you carry... Shoot to "Neutralize" or what? 
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Please note I am not a lawyer. My intent is to cause thought for you and consider some mind sets or thought process.

For those that carry on a regular basis or irregular...

The hope is to never utilizes your sidearm.
But in the event of needing to defend oneself or others...

What is your definition of shoot to "neutralize?"

Some will take "neutralize" as to Kill.... some will say when the shooter (aka Bad Guy...) stops being a threat... meaning wounded or even not... they stop being a threat, as in they give up or stop moving or taking action to be a "threat..."

Legally the use of deadly force for self defense as a rule of thumb is somewhat equal to the threat in hand. So if someone is to cause great bodily harm one has a right to defend themselves by what means they have at hand to protect themselves or others.


One consideration in the past has been the scenario that an intruder comes into your home and once faced with a great amount of "resistance" or more fight then they had bargained for may surrender or run away... they stop being a threat almost immediately.

But with more recent events of shooters out to do great harm to large and larger number of people... planned shootings at theaters, schools and even malls with the direct intent to kill or wound as many people as they can...

Where is that line for these types of shooters? "One," set to do great harm with the intention of killing until they can't.






Topics to consider...

Center Mass training... not to fall into the trap of shoot to wound (shooting a limb).
Shoot to wound is a fallacy and I strongly urge you to do more research and even hands on training to really understand why. Same goes to the idea of head shots.

Shoot under stress and see if you can hit a limb or even head and then shoot a moving limb or head type target under stress.

Also one should consider what and when you talk to police... when involved in almost any shooting.


Do you also factor in the possibility of multiple shooters? A small group of 2 or even 3 BG's?





Lastly, some will also choose to not get active. Meaning their main plan is to retreat. Take their family to safety.
Please note this is a valid defense strategy and in the spectrum of "what if" planning... should be considered, depending on who you are with and the scenario that unfolds before you.

So if you are a single guy then you may feel the need to become "active" but if you are with family... then your primary focus may have other priorities.

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Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:24 pm
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My duty first and foremost is that of protection of my family.

If I have to shoot you... I'm not just putting one hole in you. I'm shooting till you go down. Till you are no longer cabable of staying in the fight. Your moving, your failing, and still capable(have the means and ability, I.e. Gun in hand) I'm still sending rounds out.

If I have to draw my firearm to defend myself, my family, or anyone else... My goal, my needs of survival dictate that I kill you before you kill me or anyone else.

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Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:50 pm
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Agree with everything...except the head shot thing.
Train to hit a 7" target under stress at any distance, and hitting the head is less of an issue.

I mag dump a 1911 in about a 5" circle at 30 feet.
I advocate, 2 to the chest, 2 to the head...rinse and repeat as needed until there is no threat.

Aim small, miss small.
So as we train, so shall we fight. If you carry for def, you should be shooting like it. Not shooting for X's.

And for god's sake people...learn to shoot single handed!
Perfect stance, Perfect grip, and Perfect sight picture are things that happen in controlled environments.

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Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:06 pm
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H2obouget wrote:
. . . 2 to the chest, 2 to the head...

That may work for IDPA calibers (9mm and larger), but if you're shooting .380, better at least go 50% over that (3, then 3).
:wink05:

Which brings up double taps (and triple taps) . . . . Is the defensive shooter required to evaluate current threat level after each shot, or after a short series of shots? I suspect the legal answer is after each shot, but . . . .

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Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:12 am
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Double taps?
I fire "controlled pairs" ...so "controlled triplets"?
And what idiot carrys a 380.....oh wait :lol:

I figure with the 380 ... 3 to center mass and then drop the aim to the legs...I only had 6 rounds anyway...then run like hell.
Hopefully the 380s in the leg will slow them down long enough I can make a few corners and get out sight.

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Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:52 am
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In a high stress life threatening situation 98% of us will not have enough "training" to overcome the adrenalin and associated emotions, (whatever they may be) to accurately make double tap shots anywhere on a threat.
In a situation like that, center body mass is your best bet.
Double tap, triple tap, whatever....repeat until the threat is no longer a threat.

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Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:15 am
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I believe most law enforcement and military train for center mass targeting. Policy for my department dictates that we will aim center mass. I think the only time I would deviate from that policy would be if the perp were wearing body armor that proved the center mass shots to be ineffective, in which case I would transition to upper torso/head shots.

The target would be engaged until such a time as it was deemed to no longer be a threat.


Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:02 am
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Train as you would...

Now that has been said but let's clarify what folks mean.

As they may train to shoot one way but only train in most cases at a static range. Meaning no movement nor the ability to draw and move and use of cover.

Please look up the difference of "cover" vs concealment. There is a difference. One can help stop the bullet the other just conceals you. Like behind a bush is concealment.

Now some will say how fast and how many rounds and some will even preach the 2 to the body and one to the head, etc.

How many rounds is dictated by how many fun their mark on the BG and stop him/her from being a further threat.

How fast? How fast can you reasonable shoot well? Remember every round will be counted and examined by law enforcement and even the court system if it goes there.

Just because you can shoot 17+1 in less than 3 seconds doesn't mean a lot if you can make any of those "count"

More to come later. Keep up the good discussion.

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Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:58 am
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My actions and decisions are going to be very different in my house vs out at a shopping mall.

You hear shots, and a guy with a gun comes into the store at the mall. Is he a shooter? A cop? A citizen? No idea, retreat and protect family.

At home, I assume the BG has mal-intent if he has broken into my house. I will not retreat. I have a line drawn in my head of where they will be shot if they don't stop advancing. I may give a warning if I am feeling nice ("get out of here or I will shoot you"). I'm not going to shoot someone stealing my TV. They can have my TV, I can buy another. If they come towards me or my family, different story.

I'm always going to shoot center mass, bigger target. I can't ever see myself firing less than 4-5 rounds.

The only reason to not mag dump is that there may be a 2nd BG and you may not have another mag to hand (I always try to have at least one spare). Or as my deputy friend says "if I need to use my service weapon they are getting the whole mag, I have spares".

BTW my 15 year old daughter woke up with these very questions at 6am this morning after an intense dream. She's working through what is morally and legally right in taking a life. We also talked a bit about the primal drive to protect your children.

The tougher questions are the cases where the intruder (let's say a young girl, or an old man with dementia) are clearly in the wrong place and confused. Are there situations where I might use OC first? In my house, maybe I might use it to buy time to evaluate. Maybe.

Outside in the world, I always have OC to hand too. There are a lot of situations you can use it to buy time to get away and avoid a confrontation. Always nice to have additional options. I spend a lot of time thinking about buying my own Taser.

I like to talk about this incident a lot. Crazed, high, "unarmed" intruder screaming threats, shot and killed by homeowners as he burst through their bedroom door. Obviously justified:
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-new ... justified/
(BTW on an unrelated note, Cindi West is a good friend of mine).

Other thoughts: there will be consequences (civil suits, critical incident stress, etc) once you pull the trigger, even if justified. That is a given.

Have a legal plan in mind (a lawyer you can call). It is your right. It is ok to talk to police but be very brief. "The bad guy broke into my house, I was scared for my family's and my own lives. I shot him." and then ask for your lawyer. (I am not a lawyer)

My big question is: who selected "other" and what is your plan?


Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:33 am
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old11bravo wrote:
I believe most law enforcement and military train for center mass targeting. Policy for my department dictates that we will aim center mass. I think the only time I would deviate from that policy would be if the perp were wearing body armor that proved the center mass shots to be ineffective, in which case I would transition to upper torso/head shots.

The target would be engaged until such a time as it was deemed to no longer be a threat.


I have a deputy friend who shot a BG in the head. The reason is he had a hostage (knife at her throat) and the hostage covered his body. My friend fired one .40 round point blank (muzzle to the forehead), and saved her life.

BG lived, is a vegetable. My friend was criticized by the dept lawyers for violating policy to shoot for center mass. Idiots. In the end result he received the highest commendation the department has and the lawyers were told to get lost.


Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:37 am
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The second a BG crosses my front door, has signed their own death warrant. I don't give a fuck if all he/they wanted was my TV. It ain't my job to ask questions. It is my job to end the threat. BTW, where ever my EDC goes, so does 2 spare mags.

Out in the public? Too many variables. If I'm EVER confronted with a situation where retreat is not possible, and I have confirmed who is the BG, and a bunch of other considerations, I just hope I have the presence of mind to sort it all out...... quickly.... and safely.

Type of ammo?
Round Nose, Corbon DPX, Round Nose, Corbon DPX, Round Nose, Corbon DPX, then 2 7-round mags. With the same formula. Round Nose, Corbon DPX, Round Nose, Corbon DPX, Round Nose, Corbon DPX, Round Nose.

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Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:16 am
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A tank-gunner friend said it best "apply rounds to threat until it changes shape or catches on fire".


Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:24 am
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If I ever have to shoot at someone in Self Defense it's #1 for me every time. I'm shooting until they are no longer a threat regardless of where I hit them.

When that time comes we will all revert to instinct and our shots will go where our instincts direct them. All the more reason to practice, practice, practice.

FWIW, in many shootings involving an officer, the "perp" is often hit in the gun arm as well as other places. The mind sees the firearm and tends to direct one's attention there. A shooting incident in Seattle several years ago illustrates this point. A subject engaged a SPD officer at Broadway and John Streets with a revolver. The officer shot and actually hit the pistol, lodging a bullet in the cylinder and rendering the revolver useless.


Everyone can talk all they want about "Head Shots", "Leg Shots", "Crotch Shots" or whatever but when the time comes you'll settle for any shot that takes the person down.

Just remember, you have to stop shooting once the threat ends. It's not considered good form to walk up to the downed person and "put one between the headlights" no matter how pissed you are.

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Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:39 am
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I just aim my 32 at them, and they die of laughter.

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Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:44 am
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oldkim wrote:
Please note I am not a lawyer....

GET ONE.
if you carry, or are prepared to use deadly force, you better have a lawyer, and $10K defense fund in reserve.
best case and your use of force is openshut self defense - you are still going to jail, and open to civil suit.
prepare accordingly.


Last edited by quantsuff on Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:04 am
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