Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:26 pm
Powderman wrote:If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to be afraid of. If you have nothing to hide....
Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:29 pm
Powderman wrote:The idea is that you expose yourself less to an officer who might want to bust you for other things. For example, if you roll down your window they could claim they smelled alcohol when you haven’t been drinking or something then make you have a harder day.
(Insert sounds here of a groan, a sigh, and a palm hitting a forehead...)
Well....all I can say is this....
1. So, you don't do anything more than crack a window. That's OK. Do you REALLY think that's going to keep any smell inside a car?
2. If someone is drinking, has been drinking, or driving impaired, there are a LOT of other visible signs that this is the case.
3. Let's recap...I observe a problem, and I turn on the overheads. I walk up to the car, and you have your window cracked, won't roll it down any further, and you're being evasive with your answers. Your communication with me is almost non-existent.
So, what do you think will come next?
If I just pulled you over for a minor violation, I will be quite frank...your behavior is telling me that you want me to go away. A reasonable person will not act like that. It seems like you have something to hide. Yes, I'm going to dig. Yes, I'm going to ask questions. Yes, I am going to look around, as much as possible through your windows.
In short, the possibility of getting a "Please drive safely and have a better day" is getting smaller and smaller by the minute.
Read Terry v. Ohio, and see how the officer in that case developed what is now known as reasonable suspicion. Pay close attention to how Terry acted after he was contacted.
Does it sound familiar?
So, now, we're well into the traffic stop. What could have been a 5 minute encounter at best is now stretching on. I've called for another officer and possibly a supervisor.
Do you see where this is going? At best, you're going to be stuck sitting there for quite a while while we determine that you're just being a peckerhead.
At worse, we get to the point where I can articulate reasonable suspicion. Then...guess what comes next?
"Sir (or ma'am), please step out of the vehicle, and keep your hands where I can see them."
No, this is not a threat. Nor is it a promise. Just a statement of fact.
To date (and I'm not saying it will happen or won't in the future) I have NOT written ONE CPL holder. I haven't had to. I've issued buttloads of warnings, and have had some good conversation.
If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to be afraid of. If you have nothing to hide, just be a normal person, OK? Don't make it harder than it should be...ESPECIALLY if you're packing.
Selador wrote:I have been stopped three times, while armed. Never got a ticket on any of the stops.
As I said in another thread, if I am stopped...
I have my wallet in my shirt pocket.
I have my window down.
Engine is turned off, and I am pulled as far over as I can safely get.
I have my hands on the steering wheel. Until told otherwise. Then they go back anyway.
I am courteous. I am respectful. and I am honest.
But I offer no information that I am not asked for. I do not tell them I have a CPL, or that I am armed.
Two of those stops, nothing was ever mentioned about the gun.
One of those stops was on I5 south of Olympia. The officer took my info, and went to his car. When he came back he said he noticed I have a CPL, and asked if I was armed. I told him I was, and told him where it was located. He said, just don't reach for it, and we finished our little talk. He gave me my papers back, and let me go...
Be courteous. Show respect even if the officer is the most disrespectful person you have ever met. And you will usually at least eventually, receive the same in return. Sometimes you just draw the worst officer available. If so, show respect anyway, and end up driving away, lucky that it didn't turn into something worse than a ticket.
Be confrontational. Demand your "rights". Be disrespectful... And don't be surprised if you get a bigger dose of the same, in return.
It's common sense. They are the officer of the law. If you turn it into a confrontation, everything is in their favor. You have to be really stupid to turn it into a confrontation.
Funny thing is, the officer that stopped me south of Olympia, was acting like a real butt, at first. I was calm, courteous and respectful. And before he even went back to his car the first time, he was already calming down.
jdhbulseye wrote:Powderman wrote:If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to be afraid of. If you have nothing to hide....
First, i get the whole if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck... line of reasoning and I dont necessarily disagree with it. Second, I absolutely abhor the above type of thinking, it smacks of a police state, like George Orwells 1984. Thirdly, If the person in question has done nothing wrong then why are they being stopped by a police officer in the first place? Seems to almost obviate the whole line of reasoning. And if you want to say something like, he was just pulled over for a tail light being out, well technically according to the law that is "wrong" right? Operating a vehicle on a public roadway without all the proper safety signals/lights is after all against the law. Admittedly a minor traffic infraction but regardless a ticket-able one on account of it being against the law.
Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:51 pm
Selador wrote:Powderman wrote:The idea is that you expose yourself less to an officer who might want to bust you for other things. For example, if you roll down your window they could claim they smelled alcohol when you haven’t been drinking or something then make you have a harder day.
(Insert sounds here of a groan, a sigh, and a palm hitting a forehead...)
Well....all I can say is this....
1. So, you don't do anything more than crack a window. That's OK. Do you REALLY think that's going to keep any smell inside a car?
2. If someone is drinking, has been drinking, or driving impaired, there are a LOT of other visible signs that this is the case.
3. Let's recap...I observe a problem, and I turn on the overheads. I walk up to the car, and you have your window cracked, won't roll it down any further, and you're being evasive with your answers. Your communication with me is almost non-existent.
So, what do you think will come next?
If I just pulled you over for a minor violation, I will be quite frank...your behavior is telling me that you want me to go away. A reasonable person will not act like that. It seems like you have something to hide. Yes, I'm going to dig. Yes, I'm going to ask questions. Yes, I am going to look around, as much as possible through your windows.
In short, the possibility of getting a "Please drive safely and have a better day" is getting smaller and smaller by the minute.
Read Terry v. Ohio, and see how the officer in that case developed what is now known as reasonable suspicion. Pay close attention to how Terry acted after he was contacted.
Does it sound familiar?
So, now, we're well into the traffic stop. What could have been a 5 minute encounter at best is now stretching on. I've called for another officer and possibly a supervisor.
Do you see where this is going? At best, you're going to be stuck sitting there for quite a while while we determine that you're just being a peckerhead.
At worse, we get to the point where I can articulate reasonable suspicion. Then...guess what comes next?
"Sir (or ma'am), please step out of the vehicle, and keep your hands where I can see them."
No, this is not a threat. Nor is it a promise. Just a statement of fact.
To date (and I'm not saying it will happen or won't in the future) I have NOT written ONE CPL holder. I haven't had to. I've issued buttloads of warnings, and have had some good conversation.
If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to be afraid of. If you have nothing to hide, just be a normal person, OK? Don't make it harder than it should be...ESPECIALLY if you're packing.
Agreed.
Be as courteous and respectful as you know how to be.
Looks like good place to quote myself from this very thread...Selador wrote:I have been stopped three times, while armed. Never got a ticket on any of the stops.
As I said in another thread, if I am stopped...
I have my wallet in my shirt pocket.
I have my window down.
Engine is turned off, and I am pulled as far over as I can safely get.
I have my hands on the steering wheel. Until told otherwise. Then they go back anyway.
I am courteous. I am respectful. and I am honest.
But I offer no information that I am not asked for. I do not tell them I have a CPL, or that I am armed.
Two of those stops, nothing was ever mentioned about the gun.
One of those stops was on I5 south of Olympia. The officer took my info, and went to his car. When he came back he said he noticed I have a CPL, and asked if I was armed. I told him I was, and told him where it was located. He said, just don't reach for it, and we finished our little talk. He gave me my papers back, and let me go...
Be courteous. Show respect even if the officer is the most disrespectful person you have ever met. And you will usually at least eventually, receive the same in return. Sometimes you just draw the worst officer available. If so, show respect anyway, and end up driving away, lucky that it didn't turn into something worse than a ticket.
Be confrontational. Demand your "rights". Be disrespectful... And don't be surprised if you get a bigger dose of the same, in return.
It's common sense. They are the officer of the law. If you turn it into a confrontation, everything is in their favor. You have to be really stupid to turn it into a confrontation.
Funny thing is, the officer that stopped me south of Olympia, was acting like a real butt, at first. I was calm, courteous and respectful. And before he even went back to his car the first time, he was already calming down.jdhbulseye wrote:Powderman wrote:If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to be afraid of. If you have nothing to hide....
First, i get the whole if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck... line of reasoning and I dont necessarily disagree with it. Second, I absolutely abhor the above type of thinking, it smacks of a police state, like George Orwells 1984. Thirdly, If the person in question has done nothing wrong then why are they being stopped by a police officer in the first place? Seems to almost obviate the whole line of reasoning. And if you want to say something like, he was just pulled over for a tail light being out, well technically according to the law that is "wrong" right? Operating a vehicle on a public roadway without all the proper safety signals/lights is after all against the law. Admittedly a minor traffic infraction but regardless a ticket-able one on account of it being against the law.
I'll agree with your opening statement.
However, I think you are stretching it too far. You are picking at nits.
You aren't being stopped, unless something is wrong. This is true. But you are using the letter of the statement to make a point that only leads to confrontation.
The spirit of the statement is, if you haven't murdered someone, or robbed a bank, or committed, (or are committing), some other heinous crime don't act like you have/are. Because the person you are dealing with has as one of their primary duties, the responsibility to be suspicious of anyone who acts that way.
Put the window down only a crack, act all defensive, and apprehensive, and you'd peg MY suspicion meter, as well.
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:21 pm
jdhbulseye wrote:I can see that. But not picking at nits when it comes to the power of the state leads to creeping encroachment in my opinion. And no this is not an indictment of cops, but im sure someone will come along and read it as such.
For the record I have always rolled the window all the way down and I have always been as respectful as possible and followed the officers instructions whenever I have been pulled over.
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:29 pm
Selador wrote:jdhbulseye wrote:I can see that. But not picking at nits when it comes to the power of the state leads to creeping encroachment in my opinion. And no this is not an indictment of cops, but im sure someone will come along and read it as such.
For the record I have always rolled the window all the way down and I have always been as respectful as possible and followed the officers instructions whenever I have been pulled over.
I actually share that opinion. In my lifetime, and even within the years that I was a cop myself, we have seen that encroachment.
And I have and had, no doubt that your conduct when stopped is exactly as you state. You don't strike me as a stupid person, or petty.
Power, corrupts.
From the smallest, to the absolute. And everything in between.
In my opinion, every cop out there should be as subject to any law that he enforces, as any person he enforces that law against. With the power they are given, they should be required to meet a HIGHER standard than the rest of us. Not a lower one.
And every cop that uses the power they have been given, in any way other than to serve and protect, should be fired. Without question, and without severance pay, or continued benefits, etc.
At the same time, The job IS a dangerous one. And they DO deserve respect, whether you actually respect them or not. The uniform and what is behind it deserves respectful conduct.
Last... Like it or not, even those cops who personally are far from deserving of respect, still wear that uniform, and still can mess your life up in an instant. How stupid is it to poke that dog with a stick?
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:15 am
Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:22 pm
In my opinion, every cop out there should be as subject to any law that he enforces, as any person he enforces that law against. With the power they are given, they should be required to meet a HIGHER standard than the rest of us. Not a lower one.
Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:53 pm
Powderman wrote:In my opinion, every cop out there should be as subject to any law that he enforces, as any person he enforces that law against. With the power they are given, they should be required to meet a HIGHER standard than the rest of us. Not a lower one.
Who said that we are NOT held to a higher standard? And who really believes that we are not subject to the law, same as everyone else?
For heaven's sake, people! This is starting to get a bit ridiculous. I have said it one hundred times before, and I'll say it a THOUSAND times more--No one, and I mean NO ONE despises dirty cops more than good cops. And I really have to wonder about the inner workings of some people who make blanket statements.
I hear long and loud about bad and corrupt cops. "Hang them all!" "Put them in jail!!!"
Yet an even MORE broken State government is given the power to tax the CRAP out of people, WITHOUT the tax being put to the vote.
The same people (in some cases) who wail about the opoid epidemic, about massive increases in the uses of heroin and meth are some of the SAME people who turn a blind eye and go "Ho-hum" when the State actually considers OPENING UP SAFE INJECTION SITES for the use of these lethal poisons.
If I see someone in a quiet residential neighborhood who is out of place and I stop while on duty to try to talk to this person--feel them out, try to find out if they have a good reason for being there (and at the same time let them know that yes, we ARE on duty and we ARE watching), well--the train flies off the tracks! Look at that abusive, power mad, tyrannical cop! Why, he (or she) is power mad--they're trampling on my constitutional rights! Stopping people without cause!!! The HORROR!
Now, if there is a sudden rash of residential burglaries in that area, or armed robberies, or other crimes against persons or property: "Those lazy, good for nothing cops! Look at them at the donut shop! They just drive around and don't do anything all day! Look at them! HEY! I PAY YOUR SALARY!!!!
Come on, folks. Just because I wear a badge does NOT mean that I am a power-hungry maniac. It does NOT mean that I drool at the possibilities of putting handcuffs on people, depriving people of their property, taking your privately owned firearms or ANYTHING ELSE.
I simply wish that those who think this way would stop and think about it. Just for a minute.
This is getting really old, really fast.
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:14 am
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:31 am
Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:35 am
sinus211 wrote:Powderman wrote:In my opinion, every cop out there should be as subject to any law that he enforces, as any person he enforces that law against. With the power they are given, they should be required to meet a HIGHER standard than the rest of us. Not a lower one.
Who said that we are NOT held to a higher standard? And who really believes that we are not subject to the law, same as everyone else?
For heaven's sake, people! This is starting to get a bit ridiculous. I have said it one hundred times before, and I'll say it a THOUSAND times more--No one, and I mean NO ONE despises dirty cops more than good cops. And I really have to wonder about the inner workings of some people who make blanket statements.
I hear long and loud about bad and corrupt cops. "Hang them all!" "Put them in jail!!!"
Yet an even MORE broken State government is given the power to tax the CRAP out of people, WITHOUT the tax being put to the vote.
The same people (in some cases) who wail about the opoid epidemic, about massive increases in the uses of heroin and meth are some of the SAME people who turn a blind eye and go "Ho-hum" when the State actually considers OPENING UP SAFE INJECTION SITES for the use of these lethal poisons.
If I see someone in a quiet residential neighborhood who is out of place and I stop while on duty to try to talk to this person--feel them out, try to find out if they have a good reason for being there (and at the same time let them know that yes, we ARE on duty and we ARE watching), well--the train flies off the tracks! Look at that abusive, power mad, tyrannical cop! Why, he (or she) is power mad--they're trampling on my constitutional rights! Stopping people without cause!!! The HORROR!
Now, if there is a sudden rash of residential burglaries in that area, or armed robberies, or other crimes against persons or property: "Those lazy, good for nothing cops! Look at them at the donut shop! They just drive around and don't do anything all day! Look at them! HEY! I PAY YOUR SALARY!!!!
Come on, folks. Just because I wear a badge does NOT mean that I am a power-hungry maniac. It does NOT mean that I drool at the possibilities of putting handcuffs on people, depriving people of their property, taking your privately owned firearms or ANYTHING ELSE.
I simply wish that those who think this way would stop and think about it. Just for a minute.
This is getting really old, really fast.
Would you all please listen to this man? You want to make blanket statements about cops? How about you actually listen to one?
Ever had some jackass spout off about your job, and all the hacks that do your job, and how they know XYZ about your job, and how they could do it better than you? Pain in the ass right? Where the fuck do those idiots get off thinking they know everything about your job! Right? How do you think Powderman feels when you all spout off about "cops this, and cops that" like you are experts on his job?
Gimme a fucking break. You want to listen to a source? Or you just want to rant on with your opinions? Personally I enjoy hearing an actual police officer give me his opinion on how he approaches the subject. Straight from the source.
Does he represent every officer you'll encounter? Of course not. But it's a hell of a lot better than the sewing circle gossip party opinion circle jerk of a bunch of conspiracy theorist junkies that think they know everything about police work. How about we listen to the police on subjects relating to....the police??? Hmmm???
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:10 am
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:35 am
Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:31 am
golddigger14s wrote::thumbsup2:
Yeah more people giving their rights up. We are in a not required to inform state. Don't ask don't tell.
Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:38 am
Massivedesign wrote:golddigger14s wrote::thumbsup2:
Yeah more people giving their rights up. We are in a not required to inform state. Don't ask don't tell.
What RIGHT did he give up?