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It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 6:40 am
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Forum rules
Discussion or advice on how to create an Illegal NFA item will result in an immediate ban. No advice given within should replace user due diligence. Always consult a lawyer / professional.
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MadPick
Site Admin
Location: Renton, WA Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 Posts: 51919
Real Name: Steve
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Anthony.L, thanks for chiming in on this. I know that you know your shit, NFA-wise. Let me ask a couple of follow-up questions: Anthony.L wrote: As for 594, once you have the approved Form 4 to the new buyer I would personally go down to a FFL/SOT and have them do a private party transfer for the SBR. Does it need to be an SOT, or can any FFL do this? Can an FFL/SOT actually log an SBR in and out of their book without a Form 3 or 4 to the FFL? I guess I'm wondering if you would need an approved Form 3(?) to transfer it to the dealer, then a Form 4 to transfer it to the ultimate buyer. Anthony.L wrote: 2) If the firearm started as pistol you can remove the stock and return it to pistol (i.e. title I status), and then sell as normal through a private party transfer at any FFL per 594. Before you do this, don't you need to notify the ATF and ask them to remove the gun from the SBR registry? Even if you remove the stock, it's still an SBR until the ATF removes it from the registry, right?
_________________SteveBenefactor Life Member, National Rifle AssociationLife Member, Second Amendment FoundationPatriot & Life Member, Gun Owners of AmericaLife Member, Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear ArmsLegal Action Supporter, Firearms Policy CoalitionMember, NAGR/NFGRPlease support the organizations that support all of us.Leave it cleaner than you found it.
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Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:42 am |
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1811GNR
Site Supporter
Location: East Renton Plateau Joined: Tue Jul 5, 2011 Posts: 909
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MadPick wrote: ]
Does it need to be an SOT, or can any FFL do this?
Can an FFL/SOT actually log an SBR in and out of their book without a Form 3 or 4 to the FFL?
I guess I'm wondering if you would need an approved Form 3(?) to transfer it to the dealer, then a Form 4 to transfer it to the ultimate buyer.
My understanding on this is once it's on a Form 4 it has to transfer on a Form 4. So, to go from a private owner to a dealer to buyer = 2 stamps. Wonder if form one can transfer from maker to dealer on Form 3? Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
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Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:26 pm |
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Benja455
Site Supporter
Location: White Center Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 Posts: 6489
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MadPick wrote: Anthony.L wrote: 2) If the firearm started as pistol you can remove the stock and return it to pistol (i.e. title I status), and then sell as normal through a private party transfer at any FFL per 594. Before you do this, don't you need to notify the ATF and ask them to remove the gun from the SBR registry? Even if you remove the stock, it's still an SBR until the ATF removes it from the registry, right? Yes, this is my understanding as well. It is considered an NFA item - even if you remove the stock - until you send a notice to the ATF and they remove the gun from the NFA registry.
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Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:50 pm |
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Guns4Liberty
Site Supporter
Location: Lynnwood/Bothell Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 Posts: 8552
Real Name: Curtis
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Benja455 wrote: MadPick wrote: Anthony.L wrote: 2) If the firearm started as pistol you can remove the stock and return it to pistol (i.e. title I status), and then sell as normal through a private party transfer at any FFL per 594. Before you do this, don't you need to notify the ATF and ask them to remove the gun from the SBR registry? Even if you remove the stock, it's still an SBR until the ATF removes it from the registry, right? Yes, this is my understanding as well. It is considered an NFA item - even if you remove the stock - until you send a notice to the ATF and they remove the gun from the NFA registry. Hmm...my understanding is that it's only an NFA item when configured as such, which is why a SBR'd AR lower can have a 16"+ upper added and then be transported across state lines without having to file a Form 5320.20. So if you take the stock off a SBR that was formerly a pistol, it's now a Title I firearm again, even though the serial # remains in the NFA registry. The request to remove it from the registry is more of a suggestion than a necessity, although that is only my understanding. Further adding to my understanding that NFA status is contingent upon the firearm configuration, not its presence in the NFA registry, is the fact that you cannot go out and buy a SBR AR lower by itself. It doesn't meet the definition of SBR without a stock AND a short barrel, so a receiver/frame/lower without both of those things cannot be a SBR by definition, even if it was previously registered as such.
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Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:56 pm |
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Benja455
Site Supporter
Location: White Center Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 Posts: 6489
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Guns4Liberty wrote: Benja455 wrote: MadPick wrote: Anthony.L wrote: 2) If the firearm started as pistol you can remove the stock and return it to pistol (i.e. title I status), and then sell as normal through a private party transfer at any FFL per 594. Before you do this, don't you need to notify the ATF and ask them to remove the gun from the SBR registry? Even if you remove the stock, it's still an SBR until the ATF removes it from the registry, right? Yes, this is my understanding as well. It is considered an NFA item - even if you remove the stock - until you send a notice to the ATF and they remove the gun from the NFA registry. Hmm...my understanding is that it's only an NFA item when configured as such, which is why a SBR'd AR lower can have a 16"+ upper added and then be transported across state lines without having to file a Form 5320.20. So if you take the stock off a SBR that was formerly a pistol, it's now a Title I firearm again, even though the serial # remains in the NFA registry. The request to remove it from the registry is more of a suggestion than a necessity, although that is only my understanding. Further adding to my understanding that NFA status is contingent upon the firearm configuration, not its presence in the NFA registry, is the fact that you cannot go out and buy a SBR AR lower by itself. It doesn't meet the definition of SBR without a stock AND a short barrel, so a receiver/frame/lower without both of those things cannot be a SBR by definition, even if it was previously registered as such. That completely contradicts my understanding of the situation and I would absolutely NOT take an SBR (in any configuration) across state lines without a Form 5320.20. I guess we need to do some research or call the NFA branch...
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Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:13 pm |
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Benja455
Site Supporter
Location: White Center Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 Posts: 6489
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Well, as usual - Price Law Blog has the answer: https://blog.princelaw.com/2009/05/28/c ... o-title-i/So it seems the ATF has gone on record that you can in fact pop a 16 inch upper on an SBR and go on your way...BUT, the author - an attorney - recommends against it. With that said, the ATF "recommends" you inform them when you make permanent changes or want to remove your gun from the registry...but it's not required. Personally, I would not leave it in the registry if I was going to sell it - seems like a very clear/easy way to cover your own ass.
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Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:50 pm |
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Anthony.L
Location: Federal Way, WA Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 Posts: 230
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You can at any time put a 16" upper on a SBR and it is at that moment no longer under the privy of the NFA even if it is still in the NFA registry. For example let's say you want to travel to another state and your SBR lower is your favorite. Maybe you don't have enough time to file Form 20 to ask the ATF for permission to travel across state lines, or maybe you are traveling to a state that doesn't allow SBR possession. You can remove the short barrel upper, install a 16" upper and your firearm is now Title I allowing you to freely cross state lines. When you return home, put the short barrel upper back on and it's now Title II again. In other words the ATF cares more about he firearms current "state" then it's registered condition.
While it's not a requirement, if you return your firearm to Title I permanently and sell it I would highly suggest you notify the ATF and ask they remove it from the NFA registry.
I've talked to a couple local FFL/SOT buddies and none of them have done a private party NFA item transfer between two WA residents. At some point I might get the ATF's opinion on how to proceed. If the NFA item is a suppressor (not a firearm in the state's view), then no problem Form 4 and hand it over. The question is what about SBR and 594. If the Form 4 transfer is trust to trust (prior to 41f) then there is no federal background check occurs on the transferee by the ATF, which is why the FFL/SOT does a 4473/NICS when they hand over a SBR on an approved Form 4. Now post 41f the ATF will do a background check on all responsible parties related to the trust, but 594 doesn't care/know that has occurred at the federal level.
As always, lots of fun trying to navigate these horribly written laws.
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Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:33 pm |
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