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Discussion or advice on how to create an Illegal NFA item will result in an immediate ban. No advice given within should replace user due diligence. Always consult a lawyer / professional.



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 Living Trust 
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Here are segments of another forum on Trust and such...

Sounds like there are various ways to go about "putting" in the applications (individually, as a group, or corporation "incorporate" and trust, etc... I guess you'll have to look at what works best for you. I'm hearing that there will be another thread on the benefits and "how to" coming soon.

Here's the highlights from the other older post from TFL.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244223

Quote:
a simple trust will come out in two parts...Declaration of Trust, and Certification of Trust. ATF wants a copy of the Certification of trust to go along with your two 18USC compliance forms and two form 1's or 4's (would work on a form 5 as well to get one that you inhereted)

No passport pic
no fingerprint cards
No CLEO signoff
(ATF will run a criminal history on the "Grantor and Trustee" (that means you)
It will NOT allow you to have a NFA item that isnt allowed by your state.


Quote:
You are the "Grantor and Trustee"
the cost involved..if you go to a lawyer about 250.00 for a simple Trust, if you do it your self...53.00 for Quicken willmaker, and if your notery charges 5.00 bucks (your bank will likely notorize for free) that is you total expense.

there are no yearly reups/fees like involved with the corporate route, in texas
a trust isnt filed with the local courthouse or state...so its really a private matter (unlike corporate)

a basic trust as done on Quicken isnt going to allow you to put multiple trustees on the trust...It will be you,
and a person that becomes the trustee upon your death or serious incapatation to over see the items in the trust..in my case my wife....but I have sole control over the trust items, its not a shared...(ONE trustee at a time) there is no "co-trustee"....


If you want something more complicated a lawyer will have to be consulted. likely if you want a way for 15 people to be able to use a NFA item , a trust isnt the instrement that will work. You will have to incorporate
and the others become officers in your corporation. But then comes getting an employer tax ID number, keeping books, reporting wages to SSI on your employees and generating W4's or 1099's for the corporate officers, paying a fee every so often to renew the corporatation with the state..and so on and so on


b. Comparing Wills and Basic Trusts
Both wills and basic living trusts let you leave your property to the people you want to inherit it. You can revoke or change a will or living trust at any time, for any reason, before you die.

The big difference is that assets left in trust don't have to go through probate court proceedings at your death. This is because when you create a living trust, you must transfer ownership of the designated property to yourself as "trustee" of the trust. During your lifetime, you still have control over all the property transferred to your living trust and can do what you want with it -- sell it, spend it or give it away. Then, after your death, the person you named to take over as trustee distributes the property to the family and friends you named.
Why avoid probate? In a nutshell, because for most families it's a waste of time and money. It typically takes from nine to 18 months to file a deceased person's will with the court, gather the assets, pay debts and taxes and eventually distribute what is left as the will directs. Fees for attorneys, appraisers, accountants and probate court can reduce by about 5% the amount left for survivors to inherit. Unless relatives are fighting over who gets what, or there are big claims against the estate, a court-supervised process is seldom necessary.

Making a living trust involves more paperwork than making a will, because you must transfer ownership of the property to yourself as trustee and conduct future personal business in the name of the trust. But there is no need to file a separate tax return for the trust. All transactions, such as the sale of trust property at a profit, are reported on your personal income tax return.

A trust also offers a way that the trust property can be taken care of if someday you can't handle it yourself. If you become incapacitated, the person you appointed in your trust to take over after your death can step in and manage trust property. If you don't have a trust, close family members may have to go to court to get that kind of authority. (You can also arrange for property management in a durable power of attorney for finances, discussed in Chapter 22.)

A will can do one important thing that a living trust can't: let you name someone (called a personal guardian) to raise your young children in the unlikely event that neither you nor the other parent is available.

Another difference that may matter to you: Unlike wills, living trusts are not made public at your death.



The second type of trust you can do with Quicken is called an "AB" trust



Quote:
2. The Estate Tax-Reducing AB Trust
The second kind of trust you can make with Quicken WillMaker Plus is an "AB" or bypass trust, which lets married couples avoid both probate and federal estate tax.
Estate tax is not a concern for most people. The tax is levied on the property you own at your death -- but a large amount of property is exempt from taxation. Currently, that amount is $2 million, which means that most people don't need to worry about estate tax. The exemption amount is scheduled to keep rising until 2010, when the estate tax vanishes completely. But there's another wrinkle: Unless Congress reauthorizes these changes, the estate tax will automatically reappear in 2011, with an exempt amount of $1 million.

If you're married, estate tax is most likely to be an issue when the second spouse dies. (When the first spouse dies, everything left to the survivor passes tax-free.) But if the second spouse owns all the couple's property, and it's worth more than the estate tax exemption, estate tax will be due. If that's the case, it's worth doing some tax planning, because the tax is steep.

With an AB trust, you leave property first to your spouse (in trust, with certain restrictions) and then to your children. Because the second spouse never legally owns the deceased spouse's property, her estate won't owe tax on it at her death. With a special kind of AB trust called a disclaimer trust, the surviving spouse decides, after the first spouse dies, whether or not to create the tax-saving trust. A disclaimer trust can be useful for couples who aren't sure whether or not estate tax will be a concern for the surviving spouse. For more about whether an AB trust is right for you, see Chapter 14.


Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:09 am
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I'm a little confused on the whole trust issue. Is the whole point of it to make it easier to obtain a suppressor? Or, is it so I can leave my suppressor to my children after I pass away?

I'm really interested in finding a way that I can legally own a suppressor and be able to pass it down to my children when the time comes without having them paying $200 tax and waiting 4-6 months.


Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:19 pm
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shlo812 wrote:
I'm a little confused on the whole trust issue. Is the whole point of it to make it easier to obtain a suppressor? Or, is it so I can leave my suppressor to my children after I pass away?

I'm really interested in finding a way that I can legally own a suppressor and be able to pass it down to my children when the time comes without having them paying $200 tax and waiting 4-6 months.


A trust is a good way to own a silencer. In essence all members of the trust will have the ability to possess that silencer. If you children are included in the trust then when you pass the items in trust become the beneficiaries to "manage".


Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:38 pm
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Ok. So then where it says "your full name" in the document provided in MD's original post, you include everyone's name you want included in the trust?

And, if you purchase a suppressor through a trust you don't need to get a passport photo and fingerprints, etc.?

Sorry for all the questions. I'm very interested in getting a suppressor if it becomes legal to shoot them in WA.


Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:27 pm
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shlo812 wrote:
Ok. So then where it says "your full name" in the document provided in MD's original post, you include everyone's name you want included in the trust?

And, if you purchase a suppressor through a trust you don't need to get a passport photo and fingerprints, etc.?

Sorry for all the questions. I'm very interested in getting a suppressor if it becomes legal to shoot them in WA.


No, "Your Full Name" is just that, YOUR name. This is a living trust of YOU.

No photo ID or fingerprints needed... a background check will be done on you though... courtesy of the ATF...


Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:06 pm
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Way too much rigamarole just to knock off some decibels, IMO, and then the damn things are super expensive. Ear plugs are cheap.

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Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:15 pm
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$200 NFA tax stamp and an ATF form 1 and you can build your own. That's the route I will be taking once Gregoire signs off on it.

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Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:28 pm
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TacticalAssault wrote:
$200 NFA tax stamp and an ATF form 1 and you can build your own. That's the route I will be taking once Gregoire signs off on it.


+1


Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:40 pm
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I use a potato.

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Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:52 pm
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The sound suppression is just one benefit of a suppressor. They will reduce felt recoil and muzzle climb, much like a muzzle brake, and eliminate muzzle flash. In some cases bullet velocity will increase with suppressor use, as it acts to extend the barrel. I have customers in Montana and Wyoming that have been hunting prairie dogs with suppressed AR's for years! At longer distances they can engage prairie dogs and not alarm the whole community because of the reduced noise. I'll admit suppressors are expensive, but so is my computer and it will be out of date in 6 months! At least the can will last several life times.


Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:06 am
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Jonathan Brown wrote:
I use a potato.

:-?







I'm going to try this....


Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:25 pm
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What is the whole idea behind the living trust thing? So if you die, the FFL gets the suppressor back? So it doesn't just get traded around, or end up in gansta hands? Explain.

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Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:39 pm
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When you buy a class III firearm using a trust, then the trust owns that item. You are simply a beneficiary and when you die, whoever is named takes ownership of the trust-assuming they are legally able to.

The copy of the tax stamp that you keep is to prove you are legally authorized to have possession of the item. There is no need to have a copy of your living trust to prove ownership.

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Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:46 pm
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JakeB wrote:
Jonathan Brown wrote:
I use a potato.

:-? I'm going to try this....

then you will be like this guy, stupid new york accent and all. :mrgreen:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fff_1232258021

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Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:58 pm
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I would like to weigh in on this issue in several respects. I am a licensed attorney, FFL holder, and overall enthusiast.

1. Why a firearms trust? You can own suppressors in this state in several ways. The first is as an individual. However, to own a suppressor as an individual the current laws/regs require that the chief law enforcement official (CLEO) of your jurisdiction sign off on your Form 4 application to the ATF. Unless you know the CLEO personally, you are unlikely to get that signature in Western WA. If you cannot obtain the CLEO signature then you will have to own the suppressor through an entity as no CLEO signature is currently required for a Form 4 application. If you have an LLC or corporation formed already, you can use that entity to apply for, and hold, the suppressor. These types of entities require an initial formation fee with the Secretary of State and also require yearly maintenance fees of about $100. The other way to hold suppressors is to form a firearms trust which is considered a living, breathing, entity. The beauty of this method is that it is completely legitimate with the ATF, does not cost yearly fees to maintain, and can be used not just to simply hold suppressors but to hold all of your firearms and distribute them privately at your death.

2. Why not just use a Quicken Trust or another free one floating around on the web? It is true that these may be cheaper than finding an attorney (like me) to draw up a trust for you. The price for firearms trusts can range from $350 to $600 depending on the attorney, I am at the lower end of this spectrum. It is even cheaper (free) to use the one that was graciously posted at the beginning of this thread. However, there are several things that may be overlooked with the do-it-yourself trusts. For instance, there may be fatal errors committed, the most common of which is having the same person being listed as the Grantor/Settlor, Trustee, and Beneficiary. If the trust has a fatal error, it would be considered a non-entity, and you would be the proud owner of an improperly transferred NFA item. The next most common error/oversight is a lack of specialized language to guide the trustee. For example, many quick and easy trusts do not have a clause allowing the trustee to depreciate the trust assets (i.e. go and use them - in Idaho of course). This type of oversight would place the trustee in violation of their duties to preserve the trust property for the benefit of the beneficiaries. There are several other intricate areas of trust law, that I will not bore you with.

3. The Comprehensive Estate Planning Aspect. Like I mentioned above, a person can use the trust not only to hold suppressors but incorporate it as a useful tool in their estate plan. A very cool way to pass your firearms to your heirs would be to take advantage of the privacy aspects of a trust. Without a trust, a person's estate must go through probate. Probate is a formal court proceeding where all of a decedent's assets are essentially re-titled in the appropriate person's name. Since this is a formal court proceeding, the matter is of public record. A trust is administered privately and there are no public documents if done correctly. Basically a person can use two different Schedules to list your property. Schedule A is for normal rifles/shotguns/pistols. Schedule B is for NFA items. Each Schedule can have specific provisions to make sure that the Successor Trustee carries out your wishes.

4. While the "potato method" mentioned above may seem harmless, it is nonetheless probably a violation of the current state law. See RCW 9.41.250(1)(c). Hopefully the Governor Gregoire will sign the bill on her desk and we can all legally do the neighborly thing and suppress our firearms.

5. If anyone has questions, I would be happy to discuss. I am planning to attend most WAC gun shows as a vendor or you may find my contact info at WoodinvilleLaw.com.


Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:54 pm
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