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Discussion or advice on how to create an Illegal NFA item will result in an immediate ban. No advice given within should replace user due diligence. Always consult a lawyer / professional.



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 So you want a TRUST... 
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While I also use Chip for buying my suppressor.

He's not a lawyer and what he gives you is on you...


Meaning you are an adult. You take the risk. You can't go crying to mommie and/or daddie if the piece of paper given by Chip doesn't work for you down the line.

When you are young... you typically have not much to lose. When you are settled in life (good job, family, lots of valuables...) then this piece of paper can come to haunt you or not. Remember the ATF is looking for a piece of paper... a lawyer later will look at those words on that paper (if ever needed).

Granted this may not come up... maybe? Again you take the risk. :thumbsup2:

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Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:53 pm
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he just said to find a template , wasnt that good of info

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Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:48 pm
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Got mine through http://www.btalawgroup.com


Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:51 pm
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Having a class at I-5 Guns in Lacey Nov 1st 11:00 - 1:00. Paperwork must be in by Friday Oct 24th!

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Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:46 pm
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golddigger14s wrote:
http://nwgunlawgroup.com/
Having a class at I-5 Guns in Lacey Nov 1st 11:00 - 1:00. Paperwork must be in by Friday Oct 24th!


Nice. I ponied up the $$ for the silver trust, and I haven't regretted it for a minute.

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Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:03 pm
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MadPick wrote:
golddigger14s wrote:
http://nwgunlawgroup.com/
Having a class at I-5 Guns in Lacey Nov 1st 11:00 - 1:00. Paperwork must be in by Friday Oct 24th!


Nice. I ponied up the $$ for the silver trust, and I haven't regretted it for a minute.

Does it cover all your assets in addition to guns/suppressors? My research indicates that a trust for the estate is WAY better than a will.

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Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:15 pm
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It's just for my guns and NFA items.

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Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:25 pm
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golddigger14s wrote:
MadPick wrote:
golddigger14s wrote:
http://nwgunlawgroup.com/
Having a class at I-5 Guns in Lacey Nov 1st 11:00 - 1:00. Paperwork must be in by Friday Oct 24th!


Nice. I ponied up the $$ for the silver trust, and I haven't regretted it for a minute.

Does it cover all your assets in addition to guns/suppressors? My research indicates that a trust for the estate is WAY better than a will.


The Silver and Gold trusts are able to, yes. The Gold especially has more capability in that regard. You can start with the Silver and upgrade to the Gold later as well. Keith & Dennis are very good at explaining the small details for each.

A trust is a permanent entity that "owns" the items attached to it. A will basically just "donates" your stuff one time at your discretion. A trust is forever.

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Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:18 am
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Any idea or has anyone heard how I594 will affect NFA Trusts?

I'm guessing it's probably too early in the game, but it got me thinking today.

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Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:21 pm
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MadPick wrote:
It's just for my guns and NFA items.

. . . and boolitz?

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Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:20 pm
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Thumbs up for Dennis, he's a good guy.


Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:34 pm
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I've been asked a lot recently about my trust (particularly how it is affected by I-594), so this d̶i̶s̶s̶e̶r̶t̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ post is designed to relay information about how I setup my trust, what I know about it, and how I was instructed to manage it based upon what little we know about I-594 at this point in time.

Disclaimer: I am not an attorney, so what I write here is not legal advice, nor should you take it to be. It's just information I thought might be helpful in your decision to form a trust for your guns.

Why a Trust?
In 2013, I decided to buy my first suppressor. I chose to go the trust route because it offered advantages over purchasing as an individual; namely, the ability to have trustees & lifetime beneficiaries who could legally possess and use my NFA items - with or without my being present - both during my lifetime and after my death.

What I Chose
I chose NW Gun Law Group after it was recommended to me by two different individuals. I went with the Bronze Trust because it was cost effective (only $97) and easy to prepare (fill out a form online, and receive your trust in the mail). In a nutshell, this is an entry-level trust that will allow you to purchase NFA items, but it is very limited in scope (does not allow for naming of additional trustees/beneficiaries, or non-NFA property). After signing my trust and getting it notarized, I made a copy and gave the copy to my NFA dealer to submit to ATF along with the Form 4 for the suppressor. A few months later, I had my new can in hand!

Recent Developments, and an Upgrade to the Trust
On November 25, NW Gun Law Group sent out a two-part email. The first part was to recommend their Silver or Gold Trust products to those who wanted to transfer their non-NFA firearms to a trust BEFORE I-594 went into effect (more on that later). The second part was to notify clients of group distributions of their trusts (a distribution is when they physically give you the hard copy of it, and answer your questions about it). I attended the session at Lynnwood Guns on Nov. 29. Attendees of these group distributions qualified for a 20% discount on the Silver Trust. Because I already had a Bronze Trust, I was able to apply the $97 I paid for it to the cost of upgrading to the Silver Trust (with the 20% discount). What normally would have cost me $500 ended up costing $400 in total. I feel good about my decision because I have really been impressed by the communication and interaction I've had with Keith.

How I Am Managing My Trust
I have transferred both NFA and non-NFA firearms to my trust, as well as all my firearm-related equipment (magazines, optics, accessories, and ammunition). Transferring property to the trust is simple using a couple different kinds of forms (included with the Silver Trust). A list of current trust property must be kept with the Trust Agreement. NFA items are listed on a Schedule A (a copy goes to ATF). Non-NFA items can be listed on a Schedule B, but we were advised at the event not to use Schedule B. In typical lawyer fashion, an alternative Trust Inventory sheet is provided. The key to this subtle yet important distinction is privacy. When purchasing a new NFA item, you must submit a current copy of the trust, including Schedules A and B (if B is used), to ATF with your Form 4. If you use Schedule B and have all of your non-NFA listed, you are voluntarily informing ATF of your entire firearm collection because that information is not required to purchase your NFA item. Instead, use the Trust Inventory sheet to list your non-NFA trust property. This sheet does not have to be included with the trust when submitting ATF paperwork for newly purchased NFA items, but it is still effective in execution of the trust.

Things to Know about Trustees & Beneficiaries
The Silver trust allows you to name multiple Trustees and Beneficiaries. Trustees are distinguished from beneficiaries by their duty to "manage" the trust property and adhere to the trust's design. Beneficiaries simply get to "enjoy" the trust property. Someone can be one, the other, or both. Forms for adding trustees and beneficiaries are also included with the Silver Trust. Just because you specifically name your spouse in the Trust Agreement does not mean that he or she is automatically considered a current trustee or beneficiary. You must add your spouse as one or both using the forms provided. Same goes for all other trustees and beneficiaries. I was advised to have each of my trustees fill out a form making them current trustees effective immediately, which I did on December 1 (pre-594).

What Happens When I Die?
My trust is revocable during my lifetime, but upon my death it will become irrevocable. This is important for ensuring I have full control over trust property while I'm alive, and my wishes for the trust property are fully enforced after I die. My trustees are tasked with ensuring that the trust property is distributed according to how I have deemed appropriate in the Trust Agreement. I have named beneficiaries (some of whom are also trustees) who are to divvy up the property according to my wishes. Because dividing a firearm into multiple pieces is impossible from a practical standpoint, what will more than likely happen is that, upon my death, one beneficiary will "buy out" the others of their interests in the trust property.

How I-594 Affects My Trust
Because I-594 doesn't specifically list being a trustee as an exemption to the transfer requirements, Keith said that to play it completely safe (because there is no legal precedent yet) it would be wise to make sure that all the persons acting in the capacity of trustee or beneficiaries ALSO qualify for one of the exemptions under I-594 when using trust property, until the law's effect(s) on trusts & trustees is clarified, or until legal precedent has been established. In other words, even the attorneys aren't sure whether trust law will trump firearm law, but with the stakes so high in terms of potential penalties and liabilities for violating the provisions of I-594, it's safer to assume that firearm law trumps trust law until the real answer can be known with more certainty. So despite my close friends and hunting buddies being named as current trustees, I have been advised NOT to let them handle or possess my trust property (both NFA and non-NFA) unless we are engaging in exempt activity (officially hunting, or target shooting together at an officially sanctioned range).

Why Your Non-NFA Firearms Would be in Your Trust
You might be asking why I would bother adding my non-NFA firearms to my trust so that my friends could possess and use them as a way around the I-594 transfer requirements, only to simultaneously insist that those friends qualify for one or more of the transfer exemptions listed in I-594. After all, if they qualify for an exemption, why would they need trustee status? The key is in the timing. By adding the non-NFA property AND the new trustees & beneficiaries BEFORE I-594 went into effect, I accomplished two things. First, I presumably nullified the I-594 transfer requirements for the individuals named. I use the word "presumably" because, as mentioned above, neither I nor the attorneys are certain whether trustee status will be considered an exemption under I-594, at least until it is amended to explicitly declare as much. Second, I saved myself a lot of money in FFL transfer fees. Just because I personally own non-NFA firearms, and I am the sole grantor of the trust, does not mean that I am exempt from obeying the law (I-594) when transferring those firearms to another entity (the trust). So if I waited to add the firearms to the trust until after December 4, I would have had to use an FFL, which means fees, wait times, paperwork, and overall hassle. I bypassed all of that.

Other Tips for Managing Your Trust
Be smart. Don't leave your trust on a bookshelf. Get a good fireproof safe (UL fire-rated) to store it in. Keep it up to date (schedules, inventory, trustees, beneficiaries, forms, etc.). Don't share the details with anyone who doesn't have a right or need to know. Make sure your trustees and beneficiaries are eligible recipients of trust property under federal and state firearm laws. Make sure your trustees always have a copy of the Trust Agreement and the forms which added them as trustees. They may have to produce these to law enforcement if stopped while in possession of trust property. If you are concerned with the privacy of your collection, consider which documents and information may have to be furnished/disclosed in the event of litigation. Some of these documents may become public record. You may wish to only have 1 page per item in your Trust Inventory so that you only have to furnish those sheets which pertain directly to the litigation presently at hand, thereby preserving the privacy of the rest of your trust property. Finally, don't assume that any of the information I wrote above is either factual or legally sound; consult an attorney if you are not sure how to form, manage, and execute a trust.


Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:57 am
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Question about the trust thing... Don't know if this is been answered yet, and yes I know all about 594, but (!), back before 594 could a trust purchase a new firearm from a dealer in WA?
I'm asking because, now a days, how would it work with a Trust having to do a background check? From what I understand, a trust can have a bank account, and could pay for the firearm through that, but when it comes to paperwork time, how all does that work?


Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:44 pm
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twolane wrote:
Question about the trust thing... Don't know if this is been answered yet, and yes I know all about 594, but (!), back before 594 could a trust purchase a new firearm from a dealer in WA?
I'm asking because, now a days, how would it work with a Trust having to do a background check? From what I understand, a trust can have a bank account, and could pay for the firearm through that, but when it comes to paperwork time, how all does that work?

Having never purchased a non-NFA firearm through my trust, I'm not entirely sure how it differs (if at all) from purchasing NFA firearms with a trust, but I would venture a guess that the process is very much the same, if not identical.

Using the Form 4 for my suppressor as an example, and I'm assuming the Form 4473 would be no different, the Trust Name is listed as the Transferee on the front of the form ("ABC Trust"). On the back of the form, in the Transferee Certification section, you simply write in your name and role in the trust, followed by the Trust Name ("John Doe, Trustee of ABC Trust"). On the signature line, you sign your personal signature and position in the trust ("John Doe, Trustee"). As I understand it, although the trust is acquiring the firearm in terms of ownership, a trustee is acquiring the firearm in terms of possession. Therefore, the background check is conducted on the representative of the trust who is initiating the transaction on behalf of the trust.

I fully admit that I am not speaking as an expert on this matter, so I welcome someone who is an expert to correct or clarify anything I've said here.


Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:29 am
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Guns4Liberty wrote:
twolane wrote:
Question about the trust thing... Don't know if this is been answered yet, and yes I know all about 594, but (!), back before 594 could a trust purchase a new firearm from a dealer in WA?
I'm asking because, now a days, how would it work with a Trust having to do a background check? From what I understand, a trust can have a bank account, and could pay for the firearm through that, but when it comes to paperwork time, how all does that work?

Having never purchased a non-NFA firearm through my trust, I'm not entirely sure how it differs (if at all) from purchasing NFA firearms with a trust, but I would venture a guess that the process is very much the same, if not identical.

Using the Form 4 for my suppressor as an example, and I'm assuming the Form 4473 would be no different, the Trust Name is listed as the Transferee on the front of the form ("ABC Trust"). On the back of the form, in the Transferee Certification section, you simply write in your name and role in the trust, followed by the Trust Name ("John Doe, Trustee of ABC Trust"). On the signature line, you sign your personal signature and position in the trust ("John Doe, Trustee"). As I understand it, although the trust is acquiring the firearm in terms of ownership, a trustee is acquiring the firearm in terms of possession. Therefore, the background check is conducted on the representative of the trust who is initiating the transaction on behalf of the trust.

I fully admit that I am not speaking as an expert on this matter, so I welcome someone who is an expert to correct or clarify anything I've said here.


I am absolutely not an expert but this seems correct - alternatively, you could buy it yourself (not as a representative of the trust) and then give it to the trust as the Grantor - but as we discussed in the other thread, that approach isn't as clearly legal in the post-594 world than simply buying in the name of the trust originally. With that said, who knows if your average gunshop has much experience with trusts buying stuff...they might give you grief about it.

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Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:45 am
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