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 The Shockwave and classifications 
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Yondering wrote:
3584ELK wrote:
Not sure if this helps, but I just spoke with my ATF inspector about this. Evidently the Shockwave and TAC-14 are not defined as short barreled shotguns. They are transferred the same as a receiver (no pistol registry involved), BUT the buyer must be 21 or older.

Yes, I know- ATF is federal. But try getting anything out of the dimwitted fools in Olympia.


The part in bold is the whole point of these weapons. I'm not sure why people get so confused about it.

I think the dealers transferring these as "long guns" (as posted earlier) are making a mistake and doing a disservice to their customers. They should be transferred as "other", just like a stripped AR lower.


Here is the 2009 newsletter that puts in writing what you just said. I don't think anything new has come out stating anything else since then.

Oops, forgot the link...
https://www.atf.gov/file/56446/download


Last edited by Unicorn on Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:48 pm
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Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:52 am
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Ops wrote:
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What they're referring to there is a possible AOW classification if the weapon is concealed on your person. But if the OAL of the firearm is greater than 26", which is how both the Remington Tac-14 and the Mossberg Shockwave come from the factory, then according to the ATF letter to Franklin Armory, they would not be AOWs. So unless you shorten the barrel or put a stock on it, it's not going to be a NFA firearm - concealed or not.


Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:10 am
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not ture, they state 2 definitions, than state if you conceal it than changes the nfa classification.

even under the nfa it is not considered a firearm, but is under the gfa

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Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:14 am
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sinus211 wrote:
Guns4Liberty wrote:
sinus211 wrote:
WA RCW 9.41.10 Section 19 wrote:
(19) "Rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.


According to WA state law a weapon that is designed to be fired from the shoulder is a rifle.

WA RCW 9.41.10 Section 18 wrote:
(18) "Pistol" means any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.


So if my rifle no longer has a stock on it, it is now designed to be fired with the use of a single hand. Hence, according to WA state law, it is now a pistol .

No, because you still have a "weapon made from a rifle", so it never becomes a pistol. Plus, what you've done is actually redesign the rifle. But that's a moot point; it's still a rifle.

sinus211 wrote:
The thing is if we're sitting here arguing about it, and we're pretty well informed when it comes to guns, what happens when Joe Schmoe police officer with little knowledge of the law gets his hands on you? What happens when a judge with little interest in firearms takes the case?

The law is written poorly.

We're in agreement that the RCW pistol definition was not well thought out. They never should have written it to say "any firearm", nor should it used the word "or". It's so broad that SBRs and SBSs fall into the "pistol" definition (though they don't cease being SBRs and SBSs, which is important to note). But my point is that we can only operate off the letter of the RCWs, which in my view is crystal clear. I understand not everyone agrees, but I have a hard time seeing how the RCWs can be construed to mean something other than what they actually say.


That all may be true, but if there's one thing we can't argue with it's...

Spoiler: show
Boobeez!!!!
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X2 (to the boobeez I mean)!

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Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:55 pm
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Guns4Liberty wrote:
Did anyone actually read the RCWs and commentary I posted?

A few posts above:
Guns4Liberty wrote:
RCW 9.41.010 wrote:
(18) "Pistol" means any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.
(9) "Firearm" means a weapon or device from which a projectile or projectiles may be fired by an explosive such as gunpowder.

Clearly, the Mossberg Shockwave satisfies the definition of "firearm", and also satisfies the first half of the definition of "pistol". The use of the word "or" in between the two halves of the pistol definition is important; just because the Shockwave is designed to be held and fired by the use of two hands does not disqualify it from being classified as a pistol, because it is still a firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length (with pistols, it's an either/or).


Also, it should be noted that carry laws are STATE laws and therefore use STATE definitions/classifications.


I agree with you, pistol simply means barrel less then 16 inches according to state law. Its pretty clear cut on this, I don't even see how this is a grey area actually. I was absolutely wrong.


Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:22 pm
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I finally held one of these earlier this week. It was heavier than I expected.

This particular one had a set of sling swivels. Counter guy said something about it being illegal to put a sling on one in WA. Thoughts?

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Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:57 am
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hkcavalier wrote:
I finally held one of these earlier this week. It was heavier than I expected.

This particular one had a set of sling swivels. Counter guy said something about it being illegal to put a sling on one in WA. Thoughts?

I say, show me the RCW that says that. Absent a codified prohibition on it, it's perfectly legal.


Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:30 am
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Guns4Liberty wrote:
hkcavalier wrote:
I finally held one of these earlier this week. It was heavier than I expected.

This particular one had a set of sling swivels. Counter guy said something about it being illegal to put a sling on one in WA. Thoughts?

I say, show me the RCW that says that. Absent a codified prohibition on it, it's perfectly legal.


Yeah, standard counter guy jibber jabber.

While I like it, a semi that can cycle a wide range of loads would cause me to leap. Not sure I need another 500/590.

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Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:22 pm
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yeah, the sling comment sounds like typical counter guy blabber, making up rules that don't exist.

I've fired the Remington version my bud has (with a sling on it, oh noes!). I wouldn't really call it a fun gun to shoot, but 12 gauge power in a small package does have some appeal.


Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:19 pm
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Just lemme know when the Vepr Shockwave comes out so I can have a drum fed 12g I can fit under my coat.

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Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:33 pm
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hkcavalier wrote:
Just lemme know when the Vepr Shockwave comes out so I can have a drum fed 12g I can fit under my coat.
That would be cool!

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Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:57 am
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So . . . the best I can tell, it would be perfectly legal to put an arm brace and pistol grip on one of these, similar to this:

Image

By the way, that's the Black Aces Tactical and you can read more about it here: https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/short- ... lack-aces/

Modifying an 870 Shockwave to use a brace and pistol grip should be equally legit, no?

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Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:29 pm
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If by "legit" you mean non-NFA, then yes, it's legit.

And, in case anyone is wondering, despite the arm brace assembly not being required to operate the firearm, it is included in the OAL measurement. That's straight from the BATFE Spokane field office.


Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:37 pm
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Guns4Liberty wrote:
If by "legit" you mean non-NFA, then yes, it's legit.


Well, yes . . . I mean non-NFA and legal from every perspective, state and federal.

Seems like this would turn a firearm that's fairly clumsy to shoot (using the sights) into a firearm that would be a lot more usable.

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Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:39 pm
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