One concern that I will have for the rest of my life on any innovation is "How would this change/improvement make it easier for gun control crazies to interrupt the supply chain?"
Took the words right out of my mouth.
Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:26 am
jdhbulseye
Site Supporter
Location: Rochester, WA Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 Posts: 3761
Real Name: Mr. Idgaf
"Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." – T.S. Eliot
"The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - St. George Tucker
A careful definition of words would destroy half the agenda of the political left and scrutinizing evidence would destroy the other half. - Thomas Sowell
"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow...
For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." - Jeff Snyder
Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys. It realizes the ancient dream of the Jovian thunderbolt, and as such it is the embodiment of personal power. For this reason it exercises a curious influence over the minds of most men, and in its best examples it constitutes an object of affection unmatched by any other inanimate object.
So the expansion of brass cases is factored into, and part of the tuning of, many firearms cycling mechanisms. Dirty or smoked brass is often a sign of extraction timing problems. I've seen this problem with steel cased 9mm in a simple blowback carbine. Conversely, to demonstrate this, some semi autos in 7.62x39 don't shoot brass ammo well, tearing the cases with the extractor because they are designed for non-expanding steel cased ammo.
The concept sounds good, but I'll wait and see how it works in the real world. Brass pistol ammo is getting so cheap, I'm now only reloading some rifle ammo for accuracy.
Just because the case can take more pressure, doesn't mean the gun will function or be safe with more pressure. If that were the case, you would think this would already be applied to simple steel cased ammo that's been around a long time.
_________________ Si vis pacem fac bellum
Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:10 am
Barfly
Site Supporter
Location: Lacey Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 Posts: 2292
Real Name: Jim
if this stuff doesn't expand like brass, then have fun with all the extra cleaning and the lack of dependability you will get from your ARs... Your guns are going to get a whole HELL of a lot dirtier MUCH quicker. When the brass case expands upon round ignition, it essentially acts like a seal against the walls of the chamber, keeping a lot of the carbon, non-burned powder, etc. from blowing back into the action. This will essentially have the same effect as running common steel case ammo that we have now.
Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:38 pm
BlDtyLry
Site Supporter
Location: Snohomish, WA Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 Posts: 1369
Real Name: Bo
if this stuff doesn't expand like brass, then have fun with all the extra cleaning and the lack of dependability you will get from your ARs... Your guns are going to get a whole HELL of a lot dirtier MUCH quicker. When the brass case expands upon round ignition, it essentially acts like a seal against the walls of the chamber, keeping a lot of the carbon, non-burned powder, etc. from blowing back into the action. This will essentially have the same effect as running common steel case ammo that we have now.
I assumed that it was engineered to temporarily expand sufficiently to seal the chamber... As a "given." I'll have to read into the tests and specs. Brass expands to seal the chamber, then contracts the millisecond after the pressure goes down as the bullet exits the muzzle, it just doesn't return all the way down to original size. I'm assuming that this bunch of alloys do the same, but have less "creep" in length due to non-elastic deformation.
Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:53 pm
jdhbulseye
Site Supporter
Location: Rochester, WA Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 Posts: 3761
Real Name: Mr. Idgaf
if this stuff doesn't expand like brass, then have fun with all the extra cleaning and the lack of dependability you will get from your ARs... Your guns are going to get a whole HELL of a lot dirtier MUCH quicker. When the brass case expands upon round ignition, it essentially acts like a seal against the walls of the chamber, keeping a lot of the carbon, non-burned powder, etc. from blowing back into the action. This will essentially have the same effect as running common steel case ammo that we have now.
I assumed that it was engineered to temporarily expand sufficiently to seal the chamber... As a "given." I'll have to read into the tests and specs. Brass expands to seal the chamber, then contracts the millisecond after the pressure goes down as the bullet exits the muzzle, it just doesn't return all the way down to original size. I'm assuming that this bunch of alloys do the same, but have less "creep" in length due to non-elastic deformation.
That was my understanding too. Elastic deformation vs plastic deformation.
_________________
MadPick wrote:
Without penetration data, the pics aren't of much use.
"Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." – T.S. Eliot
"The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - St. George Tucker
A careful definition of words would destroy half the agenda of the political left and scrutinizing evidence would destroy the other half. - Thomas Sowell
"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow...
For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." - Jeff Snyder
Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys. It realizes the ancient dream of the Jovian thunderbolt, and as such it is the embodiment of personal power. For this reason it exercises a curious influence over the minds of most men, and in its best examples it constitutes an object of affection unmatched by any other inanimate object.
The cons already have me not even interested. That and cost. I can pick up 1k once fired 9mm for ~40 bucks. Which is going to be a lot cheaper than buying these new. Then add in needing to lube, use proprietary dies, and the fact if you mess up and pull the bullet the case is worthless.
Be interesting to see actual real world testing and not just the info from the company. Kind of reminds me of the G2 RIP ammo and how the company made it out to be amazing and the best thing ever.
Dude, are you really paying $40 for 1K of 9mm??? Go see Wes and get these for $20!!! Check out Sages Reloading on Facebook
_________________ Banned for calling GOD a racist! Oh that's tight, Seattle guns is DEAD!
Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:35 pm
deadshot2
Site Supporter
Location: Marysville, WA Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 Posts: 11581
Real Name: Mike
if this stuff doesn't expand like brass, then have fun with all the extra cleaning and the lack of dependability you will get from your ARs... Your guns are going to get a whole HELL of a lot dirtier MUCH quicker. When the brass case expands upon round ignition, it essentially acts like a seal against the walls of the chamber, keeping a lot of the carbon, non-burned powder, etc. from blowing back into the action. This will essentially have the same effect as running common steel case ammo that we have now.
I assumed that it was engineered to temporarily expand sufficiently to seal the chamber... As a "given." I'll have to read into the tests and specs. Brass expands to seal the chamber, then contracts the millisecond after the pressure goes down as the bullet exits the muzzle, it just doesn't return all the way down to original size. I'm assuming that this bunch of alloys do the same, but have less "creep" in length due to non-elastic deformation.
That was my understanding too. Elastic deformation vs plastic deformation.
It works exactly like a seal. A case has only two purposes. One is a transport medium for the ignition source (primer) propellant (powder) and bullet into the weapon's chamber. The second is to provide a positive seal to prevent the gases from leaking out of the rear of the chamber and hitting the shooter in the face. The most critical point is the neck. If it doesn't expand and seal, then crap comes back along the case making future chambering and extraction difficult.
_________________ "I've learned from the Dog that an afternoon nap is a good thing"
if this stuff doesn't expand like brass, then have fun with all the extra cleaning and the lack of dependability you will get from your ARs... Your guns are going to get a whole HELL of a lot dirtier MUCH quicker. When the brass case expands upon round ignition, it essentially acts like a seal against the walls of the chamber, keeping a lot of the carbon, non-burned powder, etc. from blowing back into the action. This will essentially have the same effect as running common steel case ammo that we have now.
I assumed that it was engineered to temporarily expand sufficiently to seal the chamber... As a "given." I'll have to read into the tests and specs. Brass expands to seal the chamber, then contracts the millisecond after the pressure goes down as the bullet exits the muzzle, it just doesn't return all the way down to original size. I'm assuming that this bunch of alloys do the same, but have less "creep" in length due to non-elastic deformation.
That was my understanding too. Elastic deformation vs plastic deformation.
It works exactly like a seal. A case has only two purposes. One is a transport medium for the ignition source (primer) propellant (powder) and bullet into the weapon's chamber. The second is to provide a positive seal to prevent the gases from leaking out of the rear of the chamber and hitting the shooter in the face. The most critical point is the neck. If it doesn't expand and seal, then crap comes back along the case making future chambering and extraction difficult.
My point (and I believe what mike was getting at too) was that I believe what they mean by "does not expand like brass" is not that it doesn't expand under pressures to create a seal but that it doesn't expand and experience a certain degree of plastic deformation like a brass case does. Instead I believe what it does is expand to seal the chamber and only deform elastically, which means it goes right back to the same shape/size it was before the pressure.
_________________
MadPick wrote:
Without penetration data, the pics aren't of much use.
"Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm -- but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." – T.S. Eliot
"The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - St. George Tucker
A careful definition of words would destroy half the agenda of the political left and scrutinizing evidence would destroy the other half. - Thomas Sowell
"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow...
For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." - Jeff Snyder
Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys. It realizes the ancient dream of the Jovian thunderbolt, and as such it is the embodiment of personal power. For this reason it exercises a curious influence over the minds of most men, and in its best examples it constitutes an object of affection unmatched by any other inanimate object.
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