And a hyperbolic question.

Would you feel the same if it was a drone with a Hellfire missile?

If deadly force is authorized, then deadly force is deadly force right?

Came here to see what this thread was about. Not disappointed. Went exactly how I thought. Some things never change....

Yes, if deadly force is justified does it matter if its by bullet, missile or anything else.

Keep beating that Anti LE drum.

I'm not all in a rage over this one ,as I'm a fence sitter myself. I'm more concerned about mission creep and how this being OK might lead to other situations. The situation with the APC and the truck seems overkill... The officers weren't in jeopardy and the guy doing donuts wasn't a threat to the public. The MP5 incident has more to do with fucking cheeseburger operator not making sure he had a backstop, hence the innocent vehicles getting hit.

Demanding accountability and questioning gov't action ≠ Fuck the police

I think you're making this more convoluted than it should be.

If you rob a bank and run away, you shouldn't be shot.

If you shoot at cops and are in an ongoing battle with them (yes, even if you're attempting to escape), then I don't have any problem with lethal force being used.

If you shoot at cops, then lie down with your hands above your head, then no you should not be shot. Just kicked a little.

So you are ok with dying because a cop decided it would be ok to shoot an mp5 at someone on a freeway all the while there are cars in his back drop? Would it be ok if your child died in the same situation?

That would be awesome. I've always wanted to see a missile

We in this case he was wearing body armor and had killed a cop a few weeks prior too.

Slippery slope arguments have nothing to do with the law. Police officers and citizens currently, under the law, have different status when using legal force. As a citizen, I have no legal responsibility to defend you with deadly force, if I choose to do so, I will have a more difficult time in court with my self defense claim. Setting up an ambush implies that the LEOs know when and where a person who needs to be killed can be killed. Works for me. Missile strikes imply eye-in-the-sky confirmation the target is "clear". Good with that too.

I fully agree. I have ZERO objections with the ones posted. There are extremely bad people in the world who - THROUGH THEIR OWN ACTIONS - have surrendered their right to live.

The police - and frankly any citizen - threatened with deadly force have inherent rights of self defense. LEOs are charged with stopping the person. That's what I want them to do.

As for "laying in wait" or "ambushing" no, I don't that's an accurate description. An "ambush" implies someone is unsuspecting. These LEOs were taking a tactical advantage. I don't think they need to offer a "fair fight" once the gauntlets were thrown by the perps.

Analogy: Say you're hosting a BBQ at your home. Lots of adults and kids playing in your back yard. You go inside to get more brats. When you're inside you hear a gunshot and screams and look outside and see a perp with a shotgun holding everyone at gunpoint. Fearing imminent threat, you sneak around to get a good tactical shot and open up on him and drop him, ending the threat. I don't think you or anyone would argue you have to announce yourself and offer a fair fight.

And looking down the road, in a situation presenting particular threat, such as a barricaded perp who is dug in and will not surrender, I have no objection to use of drones or small remote bombs or missiles provided they are used as a last resort and responsibly.

Speaking of bank robbers... LEO set up and executed an ambush to get Bonnie and Clyde. Bank robbery isn't a joke. It's generally violent people with guns or bombs who are threatening murder or committing murder (in some cases). Yup. Put 'em down. They are generally a very violent menace to society. In their case they were on a stolen car warrant but suspected of murder and bank heists.

Famous outlaws B&C were ambushed and mowed down in 1934. Do you have any issues with it?

[img]http://grindhousetherapy.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/bonnie-clyde-car-bullet-holes.jpg
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_and_Clyde#Deaths
"Barrow and Parker were ambushed and killed on May 23, 1934, on a rural road in Bienville Parish, Louisiana.[81][108] The couple had appeared in daylight in an automobile and were shot by a posse of four Texas officers (Frank Hamer, B.M. "Manny" Gault, Bob Alcorn, and Ted Hinton) and two Louisiana officers (Henderson Jordan and Prentiss Morel Oakley).[109]

The posse was led by Hamer, who had begun tracking the pair on February 12, 1934. He studied the gang's movements and found they swung in a circle skirting the edges of five midwestern states, exploiting the "state line" rule that prevented officers from one jurisdiction from pursuing a fugitive into another. Barrow was a master of that pre-FBI rule but consistent in his movements, so the experienced Hamer charted his path and predicted where he would go. The gang's itinerary centered on family visits, and they were due to see Methvin's family in Louisiana. ...At approximately 9:15 a.m. on May 23, the posse, concealed in the bushes and almost ready to concede defeat, heard Barrow's stolen Ford V8 approaching at a high speed. The posse's official report had Barrow stopping to speak with Methvin's father, who had been planted there with his truck that morning to distract Barrow and force him into the lane closer to the posse. The lawmen opened fire, killing Barrow and Parker while shooting a combined total of about 130 rounds.

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hist ... tolen-ford


"...in 1934, wanted outlaws Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker are shot to death by Texas and Louisiana state police officers as they attempt to escape apprehension in a stolen 1934 Ford Deluxe near Bienville Parish, Louisiana.

Beginning in early 1932, Parker and Barrow set off on a two-year crime spree, evading local police in rural Texas, Louisiana and New Mexico before drawing the attention of federal authorities at the Bureau of Investigation (as the FBI was then known). Though the couple was believed to have been responsible for 13 murders by the time they were killed, along with several bank robberies and burglaries, the only charge the Bureau could chase them on was a violation of the National Motor Vehicle Act, which gave federal agents the authority to pursue suspects accused of interstate transportation of a stolen automobile. The car in question was a Ford, stolen in Illinois and found abandoned in Pawhuska, Oklahoma. Inside, agents discovered a prescription bottle later traced to the Texas home of Clyde Barrow’s aunt.

As authorities stepped up the pressure to catch the outlaw couple, the heavily armed Barrow and Parker were joined at various times by the convicted murderer Raymond Hamilton (whom they helped break out of jail in 1934), William Daniel Jones and Clyde’s brother Ivan “Buck” Barrow and his wife, Blanche. In the spring of 1934, federal agents traced the Barrow-Parker gang to a remote county in southwest Louisiana, where the Methvin family was said to have been aiding and abetting the outlaws for over a year. Bonnie and Clyde, along with some of the Methvins, had staged a party at Black Lake, Louisiana, on the night of May 21. Two days later, just before dawn, a posse of police officers from Texas and Louisiana laid an ambush along the highway near Sailes, Louisiana. When Parker and Barrow appeared, going some 85 mph in another stolen Ford–a four-door 1934 Deluxe with a V-8 engine, the officers let loose with a hail of bullets, leaving the couple no chance of survival despite the small arsenal of weapons they had with them.

The bullet-ridden Deluxe, originally owned by Ruth Warren of Topeka, Kansas, was later exhibited at carnivals and fairs then sold as a collector’s item; in 1988, the Primm Valley Resort and Casino in Las Vegas purchased it for some $250,000. Barrow’s enthusiasm for cars was evident in a letter he wrote earlier in the spring of 1934, addressed to Henry Ford himself: “While I still have got breath in my lungs I will tell you what a dandy car you make. I have drove Fords exclusively when I could get away with one. For sustained speed and freedom from trouble the Ford has got every other car skinned and even if my business hasn’t been strictly legal it don’t hurt anything to tell you what a fine car you got in the V-8.”

No, I don't want LEO to put himself or civilians or other LEO in needless or reckless harm's way. It's a tough balancing act. Stop this maniac or wait until he kills someone.... not always easy I'm sure.

I've watched the video and I didn't see the LEO putting anyone at risk. The range of the shooting was close range. MP5 is very controllable in full auto and I'd feel comfortable saying all rounds would be on target. I've shot them before in full auto. They are simple to keep on a target. The range of an MP5 fired in the direction/angle would probably dissipate the ballistics before it reached the opposite lane of traffic. I would assume that the trailing LEO cars stopped and blocked traffic to provide a clean backdrop. I would further assume that the LEO has reasonable training and decision making to not put civilians at risk.

Let me throw this scenario back -
Cops decline to shoot and the truck drives through that off ramp and kills a family of 4. You okay with that?

Once engaged in a a fight... you fight to fucking win. You fight like your life is on the goddamned line.... because it or someone else’s life.... probably is.

There are 2 rules in a gunfight.
1.) fight to win
2.) fight to win, cheat if necessary.

That’s wasn’t an ambush. I suggest you look up the definition of an ambush. That was setting up a defensive position(not a very good one, being that that pickup could have smashed into the patrol car and hit the officer, but you take what cover/concealment is available). An ambush would have had several officers someplace(an over pass would have been a good option if available, as the concrete barrier would have provided cover, the elevation would have prevented the suspect from hitting them, and given them an elevation advantage as well as less possibly of accidently hitting civilians). And they would have put up a wall of fucking lead(Bonnie and Clyde ambush comes to mind). Now you nor I were there, so that wasn’t our call to make.

If you go toe to toe with anyone especially law enforcement, your in for one hell of a fight, and you willingly decided to forfeit your life.