These are not the droids you are looking for

[Ops]

That is all.

Last edited by Ops on Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[OhShoot!]

You should think about posting why it is illegal. Your cryptic message will hardly be understood by those that just don't know any better, and knowing is half the battle.

[snozzberries]

You should think about posting why it is illegal. Your cryptic message will hardly be understood by those that just don't know any better, and knowing is half the battle.

I'm guessing it's because of this:

"This shotgun in pre 594. any sale will take place face to face in the Tacoma area."

The thing is, it's only illegal to SELL a firearm without a Background Check, it's not illegal to BUY one. He also doesn't specify it needs to be face to face at an FFL in the Tacoma area.

Or is it because he's including a stock with a pistol grip? And putting that stock on the shotgun would be illegal?

[Mediumrarechicken]

Why is it so hard for you to explain even just a little bit? Really though is it how you enjoy your attention?

[L_O_G]

Don't fall for it

This should be the header on all of his posts

[Guns4Liberty]

You should think about posting why it is illegal. Your cryptic message will hardly be understood by those that just don't know any better, and knowing is half the battle.

I'm guessing it's because of this:

"This shotgun in pre 594. any sale will take place face to face in the Tacoma area."

The thing is, it's only illegal to SELL a firearm without a Background Check, it's not illegal to BUY one. He also doesn't specify it needs to be face to face at an FFL in the Tacoma area.

Or is it because he's including a stock with a pistol grip? And putting that stock on the shotgun would be illegal?

I think it's because of this:

(5) The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

(6) The term “short-barreled shotgun” means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification or otherwise) if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

In other words, if it started life as a "shotgun", then became "a weapon made from a shotgun", and the OAL is less than 26", then it would now be a SBS with the 15" barrel, and therefore is 1) not legal in WA, and 2) not legal to transfer privately without a Form 4.

It certainly appears from the listing and the photo of the stock that this is the case, but we don't know the whole story so this is nothing more than speculation.

[leadcounsel]

I'm not an expert on firearms laws on sbs and dds. But without wasting an hour researching it, on the surface it appears legally problematic for at least two + reasons.

I believe WA state law and Federal law is 18" barrel and 26" overall length. Barrel length and overall length are problematic. It's advertised at 15.5" barrel, and clearly has a pistol grip. So it appears it's an (unregistered?) Destructive Device or Short Barreled Shotgun. So it's illegal in that regard in one or more ways. Special forms are needed, and the history of the gun is necessary (e.g. how did it start 'life?'). Maybe state and federal law violations.

Secondly, the seller is soliciting an illegal non-594 transfer. State law violation.

Now perhaps the seller has a great reason on the history of the shotgun, and maybe with the breacher it's over the mandatory 18", but it still appears problematic esp with the mere proposal of an illegal transfer is a big red flag.

I wouldn't go near that, regardless of the sellers' assertions.

Now for a healthy dose of speculation: What's interesting is that it comes with 10 rounds of birdshot. I find this to be a red flag too. This isn't a birdshot gun. I know very few folks who would use birdshot in what is clearly a shotgun for HD/carry. So I think just a little ammo of the weakest variety is possibly provided to bolster any criminal charges, but to maintain the maximum safety for any officers making an arrest. Whether that arrest happens on the scene, or they get the buyers DL and address and follow him home and raid his house with a probable cause warrant... who knows.

Now, if someone were to purchase it and get arrested, there would be good defense of solicitation. However, I would not recommend testing that out. Highly risky, and probably cost you $20,000 in legal fees.

[snozzberries]

Maybe it's just a typo:

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product ... 3900171.do

There appears to be tons of these things:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=mo ... ORM=HDRSC2

[scorpion rider]

The only problem with this sale is the face to face meet without an ffl transfer. With 594 I wouldn't mess with this purchase without the ffl. It isn't worth the possible hassles even if the purchaser is leagal without the proper transfer.

[Guns4Liberty]

Maybe it's just a typo

I emailed the guy to clarify (novel concept, right?). The barrel is 15.5" without the breacher, and 18" with the breacher device. The OAL is 30.5". That means it's not a SBS under federal or state law, so the firearm itself is good to go. The implied sale sans-FFL is the only legal issue.

[Alpine]

I saw these down in FWDG and I too thought they were SBS, the guys told me there they are not SBS and qualify as something else that's fully legal, and they were selling them as normal firearms.

However I'm not a lawyer so do your own research.

As far as the transfer-FFL thing, I know that the SAF after their initial setback in (Tacoma?) Federal District Court was told they had to actually FIND someone who was harmed by 594 before they could proceed, they've been looking for a test case involving a 594 prosecution against a private transfer where the parties involved wouldn't be otherwise prohibited in the pre-594 world.

However, as there have been NO 594 PROSECUTIONS TO DATE, it's impossible to find a party harmed by 594 that you could demonstrably prove per that court's request.

[Guns4Liberty]

I saw these down in FWDG and I too thought they were SBS, the guys told me there they are not SBS and qualify as something else that's fully legal, and they were selling them as normal firearms.

What you saw was most likely the Mossberg Shockwave or the Remington TAC-14. Those are relatively new models and they are Title I firearms (not Title II/NFA). This particular firearm for sale on Armslist is essentially the same thing, but it started life as a different/older model and was modified to imitate the Shockwave. It's still a Title I firearm, though, because the OAL > 26".

[MadPick]

Maybe it's just a typo

I emailed the guy to clarify (novel concept, right?). The barrel is 15.5" without the breacher, and 18" with the breacher device. The OAL is 30.5". That means it's not a SBS under federal or state law, so the firearm itself is good to go. The implied sale sans-FFL is the only legal issue.

Is the breacher permanently installed? If it's not, it doesn't count.

[Guns4Liberty]

Maybe it's just a typo

I emailed the guy to clarify (novel concept, right?). The barrel is 15.5" without the breacher, and 18" with the breacher device. The OAL is 30.5". That means it's not a SBS under federal or state law, so the firearm itself is good to go. The implied sale sans-FFL is the only legal issue.

Is the breacher permanently installed? If it's not, it doesn't count.

I don't know...that's why I asked him for both measurements.