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 Minnesota LEO kills licensed gun owner at traffic stop 
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Powderman wrote:
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I'd much rather see a cop killed because he waited



Really?

OK.

By the way, thanks a lot.


Way to frame the debate. Context isn't important to you?


Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:19 pm
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foggood11 wrote:
No duty to inform in Minn, according to handgunlaw.us.

Do you have a different or more reliable source?

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I've heard varying opinions on whether MN has a duty to inform, from no to yes to just give them your permit. Well considering Castile was unlawfully not carrying his permit, that latter wasn't an option. So perhaps he felt he had a legal duty to inform, but he did it in a poor manner.

Regardless, I'm in the camp that it's probably a better idea to inform the cop. Especially if you're expecting to be arrested, as Castile MUST have expected. Far better to tell them you're carrying rather than have them see it or discover it by accident and think it's a threat mistakenly.

I'll reiterate, that it surely must have been known to Castile that he was not in a good situation and was facing probably felony arrest for his pile of broken laws (high on marijuana, driving illegally, endangering passengers, carrying the gun illegally while high, etc.).

I've engaged in this debate around the web for two or more days and have asked but never received any answer to a simple question. Name one legit reason his hand was anywhere near his gun, especially when ordered 3 times to not touch it. Please educate the rest of us on one legit reason.

For all the speculation on Officer Yanez making this or that mistake, Castile drove the train on this one and Yanez was responding quite professionally, patiently, and clearly. I am not willing to require cops to be shot first before they can respond. Seeing a gun, seeing a suspect move for the gun, even after told not to, is good enough to establish reasonable fear of imminent serious threat/harm.

Any of us would use that same standard if our lives were in peril.

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Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:28 pm
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Powderman wrote:
Quote:
I'd much rather see a cop killed because he waited



Really?

OK.

By the way, thanks a lot.


Context is everything....

For example....

NYPD gunfire injures 9 at Empire State Building

The officers were responding to a shooting, the attacker was walking, then noticed the cops, then pulled his gun out to fire at the cops.. The cops shot him, and 9 other people..... of course, in defense of themselves...

They did NOT have a clear shot, obviously, and they very easily could have killed the people they're supposed to be protecting. In that case, they have a duty to find a better position which to fire from, or become a bullet sponge.

You can NOT have gov't agents taking lives of (or injuring) innocent people to protect their own skin. We revolted for less...

Yes, it's a shitty situation to be in, and yes, I want every officer to go home at the end of the night, but if there is ever ANY doubt as to what's safe/right/moral/whatever they should err on the side of the citizenry they're supposed to be protecting.

This is where I have an issue with the mantra of 'officer safety', EVERYTHING is 'officer safety', and you disagree with it, you must want dead cops.. Just like the whole 'Homeland Security' shit.. Me not wanting my emails read or phone conversations listened to makes me a terrorist, right?

Officer jumps on top of a car, then shoots through the windshield, then says 'I didn't have a choice! They were driving off with me on the hood!'.. No, jackass, you jumped on the hood of a moving car and shot the driver.....

And of course, 99.99999999% of interactions are normal and without issue, but it's that .0000001% that fucks everything up, and puts the system on its head... and causes MASSIVE mistrust, in ALL communities. It only takes ONE cop, ONE bad decision, ONE poorly handled case,to ruin an entire agency, in the eyes of the public.

And, it's not even like 'hey, we fucked up, we thought X but it was Y, we're gonna make sure it never happens again', the agency says 'Fuck all y'all, we're right, we have immunity, peace out bitches!'.... like... Here or Here..

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Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:25 pm
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leadcounsel wrote:
I'll reiterate, that it surely must have been known to Castile that he was not in a good situation and was facing probably felony arrest for his pile of broken laws (high on marijuana, driving illegally, endangering passengers, carrying the gun illegally while high, etc.).


Again with the smear campaign.. C'mon man.. that's equivalent to a DUI, and even THEN it's near impossible to prove....So what, I'll even give you the fact that he may have smoked earlier in the day, that doesn't make it such a huge issue. You act like the dude just took his 3 year old to rob a bank then cruise down the main drag sippin' on 40s shooting wildly into the air while snorting cocaine off his steering wheel....

The cop approached it like a normal traffic stop, shit went south because he overreacted, then tried to piece together as much shit as he could to create 'fear'... 'I smell weed', 'he said he had a gun', 'he looked like a robbery suspect'... etc.. If he looked SO MUCH like a robbery suspect, then that's PC enough for a stop/identify /Terry stop, yet he WAITED until he had PC for a traffic stop... REALLY?! So, if he had PC for a stop, why did he need to wait to observe a traffic infraction? Why not wait for backup? Felony stop? etc.. Because it's a BS story and he knew he fucked up from the word go...

Quote:
I've engaged in this debate around the web for two or more days and have asked but never received any answer to a simple question. Name one legit reason his hand was anywhere near his gun, especially when ordered 3 times to not touch it. Please educate the rest of us on one legit reason.


He was trying to stuff his nick bag in between the seats... There... hahhaahahah... That reason to shoot?

Quote:
I am not willing to require cops to be shot first before they can respond.


Duh. I don't think that's reasonable either.

Quote:
[color:red]NOT[/color] Seeing a gun (per the officers statement), seeing a suspect move for the gun, even after told not to, is good enough to establish reasonable fear of imminent serious threat/harm.


Again, kinda hard to say he was reaching for a gun that he knew was there when he didn't know it was there...

Quote:
Any of us would use that same standard if our lives were in peril.


I've had worse, but I haven't had to shoot anyone... Why is that?

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Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:40 pm
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Anyway, Leadcounsel, I respect your opinion although I disagree with it.

Let's shake hands, have a beer, and agree to disagree.. That's probably the best option here. No hard feelings, no harm no foul. I'll let you get the last word in since I answered some of your questions above :D
:cheers2:

I will say, that if the officer stepped up and said 'Shit, I fucked up, I thought he was reaching for his gun, I realize now that he wasn't, but I thought he was'.. Things would be a LOT different.... Kinda like the Montana officer who realized he shot an unarmed man, after the man high on meth started reaching in his pockets during a traffic stop, and being told not to, after being at gun point.. He later quit, presumably because he's human and didn't want to be 'wrong' again... My heart goes out to that guy...

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Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:42 pm
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leadcounsel wrote:
I've engaged in this debate around the web for two or more days and have asked but never received any answer to a simple question. Name one legit reason his hand was anywhere near his gun, especially when ordered 3 times to not touch it. Please educate the rest of us on one legit reason.

Maybe because you have yet to objectively prove that his hand was near his gun, because there is no video or photographic evidence to back that claim up. It's pointless to provide a reason for it if we can't even establish that it happened.


Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:56 am
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Guns4Liberty wrote:
leadcounsel wrote:
I've engaged in this debate around the web for two or more days and have asked but never received any answer to a simple question. Name one legit reason his hand was anywhere near his gun, especially when ordered 3 times to not touch it. Please educate the rest of us on one legit reason.

Maybe because you have yet to objectively prove that his hand was near his gun, because there is no video or photographic evidence to back that claim up. It's pointless to provide a reason for it if we can't even establish that it happened.

Being one the is fully deaf on left side, and marginal on the right, not hearing orders and making a mistake is my biggest fear.
I've been pulled over while carrying. While I respect others opinions, I'm not in the camp to not mention I am carrying.
When I've been pulled over I don't get my paperwork in order right outta the gate as to me it looks like I'm shuffling around and hiding something.
My window is down and BOTH my hands are hanging out the window while I tell the officer I do have a weapon and I am hard of hearing.
After the initial contact, I tell them where paperwork is and there is or is not also a weapon within that place, I usually carry another in console with ins an reg, and that driver license is in same location as carry weapon.
Not once have I had a problem, or even a nervous officer.
I would not have a problem having the officer secure my carry themselves if it kept their level of tension down.
Having a step father as a retired SPD, I do have a bit of insight what they feel and think on what we would think of a normal stop.
In my opinion, a little effort and time on my part, keeps both parties not only safe, but in a much more relaxed and casual encounter.

I couldn't comment logically on the this trainwreck as my opinion both parties are in the wrong. But then again, I can't see through the officers eyes, nor read the real intentions of the driver, and neither can anyone else.


Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:43 am
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One of my work out partners was a WA state patrol officer.
I brought this very question up to him years ago..."Do I tell the officer I have a weapon in the car and that I am licensed?"

"NO! DON'T tell us unless we ASK you!". Otherwise a 15 min stop will turn into a 1 hour stop because now we have to secure the weapon(s), check the weapon(s), run the S/N(s), run your CPL (Assuming you have one) and it's a hassle for you.

This goes for Minnesota as well.

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source: http://concealednation.org/2015/07/do-y ... e-answers/

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Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:38 am
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sportsdad60 wrote:
One of my work out partners was a WA state patrol officer.
I brought this very question up to him years ago..."Do I tell the officer I have a weapon in the car and that I am licensed?"

"NO! DON'T tell us unless we ASK you!". Otherwise a 15 min stop will turn into a 1 hour stop because now we have to secure the weapon(s), check the weapon(s), run the S/N(s), run your CPL (Assuming you have one) and it's a hassle for you.




This is probably why your friend WAS a WSP officer. It may have been that way years ago, but without PC (probable cause, more than just suspicion) it is too intrusive and can be bad for the officer as well as the driver.

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Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:08 am
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sportsdad60 wrote:
One of my work out partners was a WA state patrol officer.
I brought this very question up to him years ago..."Do I tell the officer I have a weapon in the car and that I am licensed?"

"NO! DON'T tell us unless we ASK you!". Otherwise a 15 min stop will turn into a 1 hour stop because now we have to secure the weapon(s), check the weapon(s), run the S/N(s), run your CPL (Assuming you have one) and it's a hassle for you.

This goes for Minnesota as well.

Image

source: http://concealednation.org/2015/07/do-y ... e-answers/

Of the 4 stops in past 20 years, or more, that I've been pulled over for speeding and 1 hov violation. 3 State patrol and one Pierce Sheriff, not a single one resulted in them wanting to see weapon or search #'s.
And every single one of those stops had the officer thanking me for letting him now and not moving when he came up to window.
Every speeding stop, I was let to go on my way while I did get a ticket for hov, even after explanation I was going around car that tossed cigarette out and hit my windshield, but officer had thought it was me, but got a ticket for going into hov, he was a couple cars behind me.
But if they want to run numbers at some point in the future, I'd rather they do so then me not hearing exactly what they said or happen to see my weapon ver the top of my wallet as I pull it out. To me, a bit of inconvenience is much better than the possibility of getting shot or having a nervous officer at my window.


Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:17 am
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Old Jim wrote:



This is probably why your friend WAS a WSP officer. It may have been that way years ago, but without PC (probable cause, more than just suspicion) it is too intrusive and can be bad for the officer as well as the driver.


He is still a WSP officer.
You are not obligated to inform an officer you have a weapon when pulled over unless asked.
Depending on the circumstance for being pulled over, they WILL ask you if you are suspected of more than just a speeding ticket or some such moving violation.

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Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:38 am
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sportsdad60 wrote:
One of my work out partners was a WA state patrol officer.
I brought this very question up to him years ago..."Do I tell the officer I have a weapon in the car and that I am licensed?"

"NO! DON'T tell us unless we ASK you!". Otherwise a 15 min stop will turn into a 1 hour stop because now we have to secure the weapon(s), check the weapon(s), run the S/N(s), run your CPL (Assuming you have one) and it's a hassle for you.

This goes for Minnesota as well.

Image

source: http://concealednation.org/2015/07/do-y ... e-answers/


That's not been my experience in WA. I've been stopped at least twice in WA, while carrying. I tell them I am a licensed carrier and am carrying. I've never once had them ask to see it or run a SN. My stops have been under 15 minutes each time.

I cannot for sure conclude it, but based on their verbal and body language appreciation, and dialogue, and them thanking me or words to that effect, and my getting off on a warning each time, I believe my approach is the best.

On the flip side, I got popped speeding on JBLM and was obviously not carrying. Got a $300 speeding ticket. I later got it dismissed through some fancy lawyering, but the point is to show a disparity.

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Last edited by leadcounsel on Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:11 am
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STED9R wrote:
Guns4Liberty wrote:
leadcounsel wrote:
I've engaged in this debate around the web for two or more days and have asked but never received any answer to a simple question. Name one legit reason his hand was anywhere near his gun, especially when ordered 3 times to not touch it. Please educate the rest of us on one legit reason.

Maybe because you have yet to objectively prove that his hand was near his gun, because there is no video or photographic evidence to back that claim up. It's pointless to provide a reason for it if we can't even establish that it happened.

Being one the is fully deaf on left side, and marginal on the right, not hearing orders and making a mistake is my biggest fear.
I've been pulled over while carrying. While I respect others opinions, I'm not in the camp to not mention I am carrying.
When I've been pulled over I don't get my paperwork in order right outta the gate as to me it looks like I'm shuffling around and hiding something.
My window is down and BOTH my hands are hanging out the window while I tell the officer I do have a weapon and I am hard of hearing.
After the initial contact, I tell them where paperwork is and there is or is not also a weapon within that place, I usually carry another in console with ins an reg, and that driver license is in same location as carry weapon.
Not once have I had a problem, or even a nervous officer.
I would not have a problem having the officer secure my carry themselves if it kept their level of tension down.
Having a step father as a retired SPD, I do have a bit of insight what they feel and think on what we would think of a normal stop.
In my opinion, a little effort and time on my part, keeps both parties not only safe, but in a much more relaxed and casual encounter.

I couldn't comment logically on the this trainwreck as my opinion both parties are in the wrong. But then again, I can't see through the officers eyes, nor read the real intentions of the driver, and neither can anyone else.


One suggestion, if I were you, I would have a laminated card to hand over as well, with your license, that says "I am nearly deaf. I will comply fully with your lawful orders." Or similar. I would have that card and license available with your hands outside the window when the officer walks up.

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Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:14 am
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I had an accident on the 167 and had given my license to the responding officer. He saw I had a carry license and asked me if I was carrying. I said yes and he said great, he does too.


Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:25 am
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That's hilarious. My EXACT situation.

I've been pulled over 6-7 times in my adult life. Been carrying every single time. As soon as I stop I roll down all the windows and put my hands on the top of the wheel. I inform them I have a firearm and CPL. Only once have I been disarmed and I was 21 years old. Only twice have I been asked to provide my CPL. and only once have I been given a ticket which was also the HOV violation that happened a couple months ago. every other stop was for speeding and always a warning with a thank you. the HOV ticket I got the officer said I had watched too many movies and was a bit uptight when he walked up and saw my hands sprawled out.

As for the shooting, it's VERY VERY easy to do exactly what the officer says. Did the guy deserve to die? not my call. but it could have been very easily avoided.




STED9R wrote:
sportsdad60 wrote:
One of my work out partners was a WA state patrol officer.
I brought this very question up to him years ago..."Do I tell the officer I have a weapon in the car and that I am licensed?"

"NO! DON'T tell us unless we ASK you!". Otherwise a 15 min stop will turn into a 1 hour stop because now we have to secure the weapon(s), check the weapon(s), run the S/N(s), run your CPL (Assuming you have one) and it's a hassle for you.

This goes for Minnesota as well.


Of the 4 stops in past 20 years, or more, that I've been pulled over for speeding and 1 hov violation. 3 State patrol and one Pierce Sheriff, not a single one resulted in them wanting to see weapon or search #'s.
And every single one of those stops had the officer thanking me for letting him now and not moving when he came up to window.
Every speeding stop, I was let to go on my way while I did get a ticket for hov, even after explanation I was going around car that tossed cigarette out and hit my windshield, but officer had thought it was me, but got a ticket for going into hov, he was a couple cars behind me.
But if they want to run numbers at some point in the future, I'd rather they do so then me not hearing exactly what they said or happen to see my weapon ver the top of my wallet as I pull it out. To me, a bit of inconvenience is much better than the possibility of getting shot or having a nervous officer at my window.

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Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:31 am
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